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Yet Another AR-15 Scope Question

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mncarbine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 12:31
Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but I spotted a Weaver 2.5-10X Classic Extreme in the used list.  I noticed it is no longer a current model.  Says it has the illuminated double-x sight?  This is even a bigger scope, i.e. 56mm.  Would that be really nuts to consider?  We haven't talked about illuminated sights, just plain and red dot.  Lets say red dot is out due to your feedback, but what about illuminated? 

BTW, my front sight is a flip type so it will be down when using the scope.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 12:48
Originally posted by cpwomack cpwomack wrote:

If you are shooting off-hand a longer heavier scope can sometimes make a carbine feel front heavy, but all you are doing is shooting paper, then it should't bother you.



Isn't that how you offset barrel rise, like a compensator :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 13:25
The vortex is suppose to be in line with the other crossfires.  SO its great glass and product for the money.  Like it was mentioned before i am going to run the thing through a very grueling test when i get my claws on it so if you are intriqued by it I would give me about two weeks to have you a review on it.  (its on backorder currently but should have it by the end of this week or next hopefully)  I like having a dot reticle like that one had or a 4a with illuminated dot like the bushnell has.  It can be turned up bright enough that just a glance will allow some close up work but really helps pinpoint at a distance too.  It should also help target wise when you put that red dot on a target vs a black reticle alone on black paper target......depending on your targets you use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 13:27
Originally posted by mncarbine mncarbine wrote:

Originally posted by cpwomack cpwomack wrote:

If you are shooting off-hand a longer heavier scope can sometimes make a carbine feel front heavy, but all you are doing is shooting paper, then it should't bother you.



Isn't that how you offset barrel rise, like a compensator :)
Not implying top heavy while pulling the trigger but instead when your actually holding the gun and looking down the sites it would feel like if you lost your grip it would tend to fall forward and tumble ( get it)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpwomack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 13:29
With a 223 I have no problems with barrel rise, now on my 308 AR it can be a beast.  I did order a comp for it.  The weaver does look interesting.  I have never used an illuminated reticle, but want one for hunting hogs.  I know a lot of people like them and if the scope is in your range go for it.  I have never mounted a scope with that big of an objective on an AR, but I don't think it would be a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 15:02
Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

The vortex is suppose to be in line with the other crossfires.  SO its great glass and product for the money.  Like it was mentioned before i am going to run the thing through a very grueling test when i get my claws on it so if you are intriqued by it I would give me about two weeks to have you a review on it.  (its on backorder currently but should have it by the end of this week or next hopefully)  I like having a dot reticle like that one had or a 4a with illuminated dot like the bushnell has.  It can be turned up bright enough that just a glance will allow some close up work but really helps pinpoint at a distance too.  It should also help target wise when you put that red dot on a target vs a black reticle alone on black paper target......depending on your targets you use.


Ahh....so you haven't laid your hands on the Vortex we have been talking about, meaning the 2.5-10X50 Crossfire?  I thought it was a scope you had owned or tested.  You know in general the Vortex glass is good and at a bargain price, and you have or have used one of their scopes with the same red dot, but you just haven't used this particular model?

Would still be interested in a comparison between the usefulness of a red dot to aid viewing vs. an illuminated one like the Weaver on the used list?

In addition to the one you mentioned, I had also found the following illuminated models:

Burris Fullfield II 3-9X40 Ballilstic Plex
Millet TRS-1 Tactical 4-16X50 Mil-Dot
Mueller Tactical 4-16X50 Mil-Dot

Thoughts?

Thanks kind sir!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 15:24
I have mixed feelings on complete illuminated reticles.  with a dot like the vortex and bushenell (i have used the bushy personally) i can say i love them.  I do not like many completely lit reticles simply because they tend to wash the sight picture or be to bright or not brite enough.   With the dot is controllable.  Look at the trijicon accupoints.  the dot is all that is lit and its arguably the best low light scope ever.....
I have looked through several Vortex's and used a couple but not this particular model no,  thats why i said give a a few weeks and i'll tell you more about it.  I can say without a doubt if its as good as the others and close to the same as the bushy reticle it will be one helluva buy and IMO perfect for what i want it for!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 15:32
Okie dokie....I couldn't resist, so I called Vortex to get more info.  I told their guy what kind of gun I had and what kind of shooting I was going to do.  He said he suggests a vanilla scope, i.e. no red dots, no illumination, no fancy BDC or Mil-Dots, just a plain old crosshair.  He did think I should have higher magnification, even if I wasn't going to go beyond a 200 yards probably.  He suggested the Crossfire 4-16x50 AO Riflescope. 

Their line up from the Crossfire, the Diamondback, doesn't have a "proper" scope in it, and a move up to the Viper line goes beyond the capability of the gun.

Based on his recommendation to go into a 4-16X50, are their other scopes to consider other than Vortex, or is Vortex still the "sweet spot" of scope pricing/quality?

FYI, I asked about the size of the dot on the V-Brite.  He said it was slightly over 1MOA compared to the reticle thickness of .1MOA on the regular reticle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 15:52

Normally you can manipulate the dot size a little by adjusting the brightness.  Then again on a AR, 1MOA is good.  I still would not suggest going higher than 2.5 max on an AR that would ever be shoot at less than 50yds....and even I think thats a little high for use with quick engaugements.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 16:47
Perhaps the size change you are seeing based on viewing the glow.  Seems the optic is precisely 1.04XX or whatever he told me.  Like how a bright light bulb looks bigger then when off or at a low setting.

Based on his recommendation to go into a 4-16X50, are their other scopes to consider other than Vortex, or is Vortex still the "sweet spot" of scope pricing/quality?

Thanks again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 17:02
Vortex is great bang for your buck thats for sure but not the end all.    Whats the most you want to spend?  We can recommend the best 4-16 in that price range.
And yeah the glow is what i am talking about on the intesity levels
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 17:10
Hiya...  I was hoping to spend about $300 including the mounts.  I had found a mount with this description:

New Famous Maker aluminumTactical Rail Scope Mount System. Features 3 Picatinny rails mounts on each of the 30mm rings. See thru design allow the use of iron sights. Matte black finish. Includes allen wrench. 

Was a bit intrigued by the ability to "see through" which I assume that means it lines up with the iron sights?  Like the other example where the red dot was by the front site, but you wouldn't be able to see the front site through the scope?  Confused as usual :)

Lew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2010 at 21:25
Hello again,  I found the 2009 Scope Scale and added the next category up and went back to all the suggested makes and models and sought out scopes similar to 4-16.  I came up with quite a few models and after some sorting I came up with this list:

Bushnell Elite 3200 5-15X50 Multi-X 1" 300
Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16X40 Multi-X 1" 420
Millet Buck Gold 4-16X56 Plex 30mm 260
Millet TRS-1 Tactical 4-16X50 Mil-Dot 30mm 300
Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14X40 Nikoplex 1" 300
Sightron SII 4.5-14X50 Plex 1" 367
Sightron SII 4-16X42 Plex 1" 347
Vortex Crossfire 4-16X50 V-Plex Wide 30mm 200
Weaver Classic V 4-16X42 Dual-X 1" 300
Weaver Grandslam 4.5-14X40 Dual-X 1" 370

Considering the Vortex Crossfire the base scope at $200, from there you have some considerations to make.  The Bushnell Elite 3200, Millet TRS-1, Nikon Buckmaster, and the Weaver Classic V are $100 more.  Are they all 1.5X as good.  The Bushnell Elite 4200, Sightron sII, and Weaver Grandslam run 2-4X as much.  Are they that much better?

The Vortex and Millet are the only 30mm models and isn't that the "new" thing?

Only a few models half the models are 50mm or bigger glass...including the Vortex.

The TRS-1 gives you illumination too...but don't know if that is turned off if it compares to the others?

Seems like I can throw one of these scopes on the Burris mount and then I can figure out my replacement rear sight after I pull off the Dominator I have on there now.

Please let me know if there is a scope in this list you think is worth that much more than the Vortex?

Thanks so much!

Lew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 00:46
If you are only shooting at targets and nothing else, I would consider a SS 10x. Good glass and very good adjustments for W/E.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P499.aspx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 01:02
Trijicon 3x24 Compact Acog Rifle Scope Red Crosshair Trijicon 3x24 Compact Acog Rifle Scope
Stock # - TA50R4
  • Red Crosshair
  • Free Lens Cleaning Pen w/ Purchase
$909.95
Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope Amber Triangle Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope
Stock # - TA442
  • Amber Triangle
  • Free Lens Cleaning Pen w/ Purchase
$909.95 
I use these in a La Rue RCO mount the size works better than larger traditional optics.
This seems like a good deal you would have to call SWFA for the correct mount.
Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope Amber Crosshair Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope
Stock # - TA264
  • Amber Crosshair
  • Free Lens Cleaning Pen w/ Purchase
$549.95

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 09:15
Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

If you are only shooting at targets and nothing else, I would consider a SS 10x. Good glass and very good adjustments for W/E.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-Riflescope-P499.aspx


Not only shooting targets, and would like something more flexible than a fixed magnification, but thanks for the suggestion.  As an aside, I was told when looking at a 3-9X that I needed more magnification (like 16X) for out to 200 yards?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 09:20
Hiya...

I was hoping to get by with a budget closer to $300 and my research seemed to indicate that traditional crosshair sites are better for targets.  As your target samples show, they are made for shooting people, not bullseyes :) Like my previous response, I was also told I needed something in the neighborhood of 16X for 200+ yards?

As an aside, it seems weird to spend as much money for a scope as the gun it goes on?

Thanks!

Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Trijicon 3x24 Compact Acog Rifle Scope Red Crosshair Trijicon 3x24 Compact Acog Rifle Scope
Stock # - TA50R4
  • Red Crosshair
  • Free Lens Cleaning Pen w/ Purchase
$909.95
Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope Amber Triangle Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope
Stock # - TA442
  • Amber Triangle
  • Free Lens Cleaning Pen w/ Purchase
$909.95 
I use these in a La Rue RCO mount the size works better than larger traditional optics.
This seems like a good deal you would have to call SWFA for the correct mount.
Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope Amber Crosshair Trijicon 1.5x16 Compact Acog Rifle Scope
Stock # - TA264
  • Amber Crosshair
  • Free Lens Cleaning Pen w/ Purchase
$549.95
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 09:29
My honest opinion is for $300 you cannot get a scope would good enough glass to look good at 16x.  You would be much better off getting a 3-9x type scope and spending right up to your limit.  Quality glass will always trump magnification.  Many times new shooters come in thinking they need a scope with 20x to go hunting when in reality a fixed 4x scope would be more than enough 90% of the time. 

Now granted if you are just shooting targets which it sounds like you are a little more mag night help some.  But still a cheap high mag scope will never be better than a decent lower mag scope.  For $300 you cannot beat the Bushnell 4200 3-9x scope.  Yes it might not be 16x, but it has good glass, is super tough and 9x is enough for 200 yard shooting IMO.  I shoot well beyond that with a fixed 4x all the time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 09:43
agreed 100000%!

lots of people have gone up in magnification to "see better" but really what is needed is better quality optics
been there, done that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 11:40
Hello,

I was shopping for a 3-9X and when I called Vortex to talk to them about their scope, I gave them my requirements and they suggested their 4-16X50 instead.  There seem to be a lot of people, including people who have replied to this string, who feel the Vortex is comparable to the "name" brands that cost more.  How much are we paying for marketing and "name" when buying scopes or other products? 

I come from the photography world.  I shoot Nikon.  When I am buying new lenses for my cameras I always look to see what Nikon offers, and then I look at the 3rd party offerings.  In the camera world, there are companies doing honest, side-by-side comparisons.   Actual resolution, chromatic abberation, discoloring, etc. is all taken into consideration.  There doesn't seem to be much for rifle scopes other than subjective information, nothing conclusive as it is all based on opinion, nothing scientific.

Barring scientific data on these scopes, we can only rely on what specifications we get from the manufacturers and then subjective information from those who have used them.

Without better information, it seems the only way to know for ones self is to look through each of them, at the kind of target that will be used, at the distance that will be used.

In the camera world, there is nothing better than Zeiss glass.  No one will dispute that fact regardless of what brand of camera they shoot.  If they make the best glass for cameras, which is a more critical application, then theoretically their glass would be best in scopes, but Zeiss hasn't been mentioned at all in this string.  Maybe they don't make their scopes well, even if the have the best glass.  If Zeiss isn't a contender in the scope market, then I have to figure out what is best quality for the dollar, and that seems to be Vortex.  Their equivalent in the camera world would be Tamron and Sigma.  Companies that make excellent lenses for half to two thirds the price of comparable Nikon and Canon lenses.

Everyone reading and responding to my request for help knows more about this subject than I do, I am not an expert on scopes, but I am an expert on camera lenses and they aren't so different as they both have very similar requirements, i.e. contrast, sharpness, and clarity.  The reticle, knobs, mounts, etc. are all secondary to the glass.

Maybe the Vortex guy was wrong and I don't need a 14-16X scope, but for discussion, lets say he is correct, at least for comparison sake.

The Bushnell Elite 4200 is 4-16X40 with a 1" tube.  The Vortex is 4-16X50 with a 30mm tube.  I was led to believe 30mm was better than 1" and 50mm was better than 40mm.  So for the specifications, the Vortex seems better.  That brings us back to the glass.  The Bushnell scope is $420, the Vortex is $200.  Since I would be getting a smaller diameter scope, there is less light entering, demanding the Bushnell to perform that much better to offset the reduced light.  Is the glass in the Bushnell more than 2X as good as the Vortex?  If I took the two scopes out in the early morning or evening, in a low light situation, and looked at the same target at the same distance, would I see the target 2-3X as clear, as distinct?  I don't know.  That is where I need someone who has used both to tell me.

When you talk about shooting 200yd with a 4X, are you shooting a deer or a target?  I have never heard of anyone target shooting at 200yd with a 4X, but then this is a new field for me.

When I was involved with guns and scopes many years ago, the 4X was the most common scope for hunters, especially in wooded areas like here where you would rarely shoot very far and you had a large area on the deer to hit vs. a 1" bull at 200yd.

In the 3-9X size, the Bushnell is closer in cost.  The Elite 4200 3-9X40 is $255.  In the Vortex you get 2.5-10X50 for $100 less.  More range, most light, less money. 

Would love the chance to compare these scopes side by side, same light conditions, same distance, same target to see for myself how much better one is over the other.

I really appreciate all the suggestions and feedback!

Lew

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

My honest opinion is for $300 you cannot get a scope would good enough glass to look good at 16x.  You would be much better off getting a 3-9x type scope and spending right up to your limit.  Quality glass will always trump magnification.  Many times new shooters come in thinking they need a scope with 20x to go hunting when in reality a fixed 4x scope would be more than enough 90% of the time. 

Now granted if you are just shooting targets which it sounds like you are a little more mag night help some.  But still a cheap high mag scope will never be better than a decent lower mag scope.  For $300 you cannot beat the Bushnell 4200 3-9x scope.  Yes it might not be 16x, but it has good glass, is super tough and 9x is enough for 200 yard shooting IMO.  I shoot well beyond that with a fixed 4x all the time. 
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