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Consulting w/ local SWAT / Gang Unit

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Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:33
Really, a 50-cal in an urban setting?
 
To disable a car engine?
 
A Howitzer will also disable a car, and the intimidation factor there is tremendous.
 
Or a Cruise missille!
 
 
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned carbines in 45ACP or even SBRs in 9mm.
 
It's hard to beat an H&K UMP 45 for up-close-n-personal.
 
I agree there should be long guns but probably not too many.  As for the .308 ARs, not sure what I think of that. Semi-precise 308 rounds travel far!
 
 
Ted is LE, I am military, we think in different terms, so I'll defer to Ted's recommendations here.
 
Of the LE snipers I've known and shot with, most want or need lower power than 5X, the tunnel vision that accompanies taking these shots is made worse by a narrow FOV.  I'd go for a 3X or 4X bottom end.
 
Leupold is fairly standard and most departments will shell out for Leupold. There are usually better options, but keeping with standard equipment can help with training continuit and in the court room. ("Your secret squirrle sniper with high-precision rifle and speciality scope shot him in the head when a leg shot would'a done the job...")
 
I would avoid 6.8SPCs, the ammo is variable (sometimes hard to find, especially in small towns) and the best accuracy comes from hand loads - then you get to explain to a jury why commercial wasn't good enough and you didn't intend to introduce unnecessary pain and suffering.
 
For CQB, Aimpoint, Trijicon, EoTech is the best game in town - military or LE.  Some shooters will prefer one over the other, I'd give them some freedom to choose what they think they can best employ.
 
Get the teams together and demo a few options, see what is liked and disliked (optics.)
 
 
I'll respectfully disagree with the above post on a .50 for the teams. 
 
 
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Equality is something you whine about not being given.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:48
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

That is true. Can you imagine the write ups about overkill though? Then there's the pass thru. Not to mention the mess.

I was working on getting some heavy weapons for SWAT here, legal counsel killed it.  He was even on our side, but ended up with the assessment that there was no way to justify even SWAT having that kind of firepower.  We already had a test and training program set up.  No go...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike McDonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 17:54
Rather than playing amateur hour with folks whose lives would be on the line,
why not stop re-inventing the wheel, and have your novice cops call on professional cops who do this already.
Fort Worth PD training division.  They worked through this decades ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 18:30
Just FYI, they approached me and I responded to their request.  Not my job to do their homework...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 21:35
Des Moines Metro uses some Ar-15's with compact ACOG s with the illuminated crosshair and some bolt action Remmingtons even a couple of left handed ones.  I prefer the R5 Mil Spec because its stainless but you have to put a finish on it to cover the appearance.  Im still thinking a couple of .308 DPMS  16 in rifles with Trijicon  2.5-10x56 scopes makes a lot of sense to suppliment the bolt guns. Im  still thinking half the entry team should have shotguns and half M4 style semi auto only AR-15's

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2010 at 01:53
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

what about 6.8 ARs with a 1-4 scope?


Good suggestion, considerably more power than the .223, but won't have as much over penetration power as the .308.  Excellent
Here we go making a good case for a DPMS in .243 problem is I dont think you will sell the city fathers on anything but .223 and if really lucky a hand full of .308 special purpose designated marksman rifles some bolts some semi auto at least two of each per team.  You simply have to have more than just one long rifle and if you went two bolt action and had 3 to 4 semi auto .308 that should contain even the worst case gang scenerio up to belt fed full autos that the drug cartel might have.  At that point you need a good working relationship with the Feds.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2010 at 09:46
Ok Ok to clear my humor up,,,,, I do not think an urban unit should have a 50.  I do think that they are overkill, they are a huge liablility and they will never be a practical use other than in the military.  (Yes i said that) With that said, RC had a good point on the H&K the 45 is a powerful round but doesn't run through mulitple barriers and would be a good idea.  The 223 and 308 are goign to have some pass through and you will be seriously aware of you backstop/environment before engaging like you could with a slow moving powerful pistol round.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2010 at 20:16
I am not sure that barrier penetration for 45ACP is any lower than for 223Rem.  If anything, I suspect that 223 with proper bullets (frangibles, for example) will have less penetration through sheetrock walls than just about any typical 45ACP.

Either way, it is best to ask someone from a large PD, like Mike suggested.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Preston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 00:52
2 - .308 R5 Mil Spec
2 - Springfield M1A Socom .308's
4 - Rock River AR15's
4 - 12ga Mossberg 500
 
OR
 
1 - .308 R5 Mil Spec
1 - Springfield M1A Socom .308
2 - AR-10's
4 - Rock River AR15's
4 - 12ga Mossberg 500


Edited by Preston - January/08/2010 at 01:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 00:57

When you are talking about a tactical unit that may have to shoot someone through a car door or a house door, wall or window the .223 is just not enough gun and you need some rifles that will penetrate those type bariers, typically those are the bolt action rifles but I see a need to suppliment those with some semi autos in .308 and not everyone needs one but a team needs two or three that can be used if needed.  Nobody in an urban enviroment needs a 50 BMG and most ranges wont let you shoot them.  .308 is a fairly well accepted caliber for tactical rifles in Law Enforcement and to suppliment the bolt guns with two or three semi autos in .308 gives some flexability to how they deploy as these would be designated marksman guns.  The entry guns should be .223 and 12 ga and have very low magnification or 1x optics.  The .308 s need to be seen as designated marksman weapons with higher magnification variable power optics.  I'd put 2.5-10x56 Accupoint Trijicons on the semi autos and the green dot mildot might be the way to go it is certainly a good low light optic. I'm inclined to arm the snipers spotters with the semi auto .308 so that the two could provide sustained fire if needed.



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/08/2010 at 01:00

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 01:19
http://www.proguns.com/benelli-m1super90.asp

Benelli M1 Super-90 Entry Shotgun (New)

Preston I know you will like this one Ive been drooling over one at Scheels for the last several months.  


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/08/2010 at 01:20

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Preston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 02:25
I'm not a Benelli kinda guy I took a look at it... I'd take the
 
 
OR
 
Mossberg 500 Persuader
 
They are just really nice and simple pump actions nothing fancy so less sh*t to break or go wrong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Preston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 02:27
Check out the new Mossberg 500 Road Blocker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rjtfroggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 05:46
 Koshkin; you can buy frangible bullets in almost any caliber now including 45acp. Shooting steel plate is becoming very popular here on the right coast, maybe what you need in California.
 Give this guy a look for frangible needs www.frangiblebullets.com      Rodney is a great guy to due business with and tries to take care of the smaller customers with terrific service and fast reasonable shipping. I have a small supply of them put away just in case the local range goes lead free, and when there is a little left over in the budget I order more.
  The match grade or siper load in 223 or 308 is more accurate than anything I have been able to come up with, and is supposed to be "duty capable" it is a little expensive but practice with what you use and there will be no surprizes.
froggy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2010 at 10:39
A lot of .223 rounds are made to tumble and fall apart, so they won't over penetrate to much.  Some even have a hard time with sheetrock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/09/2010 at 00:39
I think that the FNAR and the FN shotguns are worth a look.
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