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Consulting w/ local SWAT / Gang Unit |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Really, a 50-cal in an urban setting?
To disable a car engine?
A Howitzer will also disable a car, and the intimidation factor there is tremendous.
Or a Cruise missille!
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned carbines in 45ACP or even SBRs in 9mm.
It's hard to beat an H&K UMP 45 for up-close-n-personal.
I agree there should be long guns but probably not too many. As for the .308 ARs, not sure what I think of that. Semi-precise 308 rounds travel far!
Ted is LE, I am military, we think in different terms, so I'll defer to Ted's recommendations here.
Of the LE snipers I've known and shot with, most want or need lower power than 5X, the tunnel vision that accompanies taking these shots is made worse by a narrow FOV. I'd go for a 3X or 4X bottom end.
Leupold is fairly standard and most departments will shell out for Leupold. There are usually better options, but keeping with standard equipment can help with training continuit and in the court room. ("Your secret squirrle sniper with high-precision rifle and speciality scope shot him in the head when a leg shot would'a done the job...")
I would avoid 6.8SPCs, the ammo is variable (sometimes hard to find, especially in small towns) and the best accuracy comes from hand loads - then you get to explain to a jury why commercial wasn't good enough and you didn't intend to introduce unnecessary pain and suffering.
For CQB, Aimpoint, Trijicon, EoTech is the best game in town - military or LE. Some shooters will prefer one over the other, I'd give them some freedom to choose what they think they can best employ.
Get the teams together and demo a few options, see what is liked and disliked (optics.)
I'll respectfully disagree with the above post on a .50 for the teams.
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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I was working on getting some heavy weapons for SWAT here, legal counsel killed it. He was even on our side, but ended up with the assessment that there was no way to justify even SWAT having that kind of firepower. We already had a test and training program set up. No go...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
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Mike McDonald
Optics Journeyman Joined: September/01/2004 Status: Offline Points: 739 |
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Rather than playing amateur hour with folks whose lives would be on the line,
why not stop re-inventing the wheel, and have your novice cops call on professional cops who do this already.
Fort Worth PD training division. They worked through this decades ago.
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Just FYI, they approached me and I responded to their request. Not my job to do their homework...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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Des Moines Metro uses some Ar-15's with compact ACOG s with the illuminated crosshair and some bolt action Remmingtons even a couple of left handed ones. I prefer the R5 Mil Spec because its stainless but you have to put a finish on it to cover the appearance. Im still thinking a couple of .308 DPMS 16 in rifles with Trijicon 2.5-10x56 scopes makes a lot of sense to suppliment the bolt guns. Im still thinking half the entry team should have shotguns and half M4 style semi auto only AR-15's
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Ok Ok to clear my humor up,,,,, I do not think an urban unit should have a 50. I do think that they are overkill, they are a huge liablility and they will never be a practical use other than in the military. (Yes i said that) With that said, RC had a good point on the H&K the 45 is a powerful round but doesn't run through mulitple barriers and would be a good idea. The 223 and 308 are goign to have some pass through and you will be seriously aware of you backstop/environment before engaging like you could with a slow moving powerful pistol round.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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I am not sure that barrier penetration for 45ACP is any lower than for 223Rem. If anything, I suspect that 223 with proper bullets (frangibles, for example) will have less penetration through sheetrock walls than just about any typical 45ACP.
Either way, it is best to ask someone from a large PD, like Mike suggested. ILya
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Preston
Optics Apprentice Joined: September/13/2009 Location: IOWA Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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2 - .308 R5 Mil Spec
2 - Springfield M1A Socom .308's
4 - Rock River AR15's
4 - 12ga Mossberg 500
OR
1 - .308 R5 Mil Spec
1 - Springfield M1A Socom .308
2 - AR-10's
4 - Rock River AR15's
4 - 12ga Mossberg 500 Edited by Preston - January/08/2010 at 01:08 |
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"I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace."
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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When you are talking about a tactical unit that may have to shoot someone through a car door or a house door, wall or window the .223 is just not enough gun and you need some rifles that will penetrate those type bariers, typically those are the bolt action rifles but I see a need to suppliment those with some semi autos in .308 and not everyone needs one but a team needs two or three that can be used if needed. Nobody in an urban enviroment needs a 50 BMG and most ranges wont let you shoot them. .308 is a fairly well accepted caliber for tactical rifles in Law Enforcement and to suppliment the bolt guns with two or three semi autos in .308 gives some flexability to how they deploy as these would be designated marksman guns. The entry guns should be .223 and 12 ga and have very low magnification or 1x optics. The .308 s need to be seen as designated marksman weapons with higher magnification variable power optics. I'd put 2.5-10x56 Accupoint Trijicons on the semi autos and the green dot mildot might be the way to go it is certainly a good low light optic. I'm inclined to arm the snipers spotters with the semi auto .308 so that the two could provide sustained fire if needed. Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/08/2010 at 01:00 |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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http://www.proguns.com/benelli-m1super90.asp
Benelli M1 Super-90 Entry Shotgun (New)Preston I know you will like this one Ive been drooling over one at Scheels for the last several months. Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/08/2010 at 01:20 |
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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Preston
Optics Apprentice Joined: September/13/2009 Location: IOWA Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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I'm not a Benelli kinda guy I took a look at it... I'd take the
Mossberg 500 Cruiser http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/New/54125.jpg
OR
Mossberg 500 Persuader
They are just really nice and simple pump actions nothing fancy so less sh*t to break or go wrong
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"I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace."
Thomas Payne, Revolutionist |
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Preston
Optics Apprentice Joined: September/13/2009 Location: IOWA Status: Offline Points: 193 |
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Check out the new Mossberg 500 Road Blocker
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"I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace."
Thomas Payne, Revolutionist |
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rjtfroggy
Optics Journeyman Joined: August/24/2009 Location: WTBY. CT. Status: Offline Points: 381 |
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Koshkin; you can buy frangible bullets in almost any caliber now including 45acp. Shooting steel plate is becoming very popular here on the right coast, maybe what you need in California.
Give this guy a look for frangible needs www.frangiblebullets.com Rodney is a great guy to due business with and tries to take care of the smaller customers with terrific service and fast reasonable shipping. I have a small supply of them put away just in case the local range goes lead free, and when there is a little left over in the budget I order more.
The match grade or siper load in 223 or 308 is more accurate than anything I have been able to come up with, and is supposed to be "duty capable" it is a little expensive but practice with what you use and there will be no surprizes.
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froggy
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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A lot of .223 rounds are made to tumble and fall apart, so they won't over penetrate to much. Some even have a hard time with sheetrock.
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
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I think that the FNAR and the FN shotguns are worth a look.
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