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Consulting w/ local SWAT / Gang Unit |
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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Posted: January/05/2010 at 22:52 |
medium PD have 30+ members of SWAT / GANG unit looking for outfitting URBAN wondering what weapons are practical for two 12-16 officer teams.
looking for suggestions for 3 short range .308's... possibly a .243
and I am trying to see about SLUG guns for forceful takedown of barricaded or BP Glass Penetration probably 2x mag. tops...
Price range is limited to less than 1000 per scope I have suggested 4-12 variable...whinning and complaining when suggested 3-9 or 4x / 6x fixed...
Again open for any suggestions Conditions are -10 to 120F rain / snow / they will be abused.
They are not very well trained admittedly and will be starting from ground up most of them have a few with 20+ years that add a lot but are not the primaries for rifles.
vs AR's got some hand me downs from FEDs that they are doing decent with...wondering suggestion for CQ I know what is used in mil but not Civi LEO wondering why they have anywheres from red dots to open sights to barska/ nc star... Am looking at standardizing with less than $400 per...
Thank you in advance...
Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - January/05/2010 at 22:55 |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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Two 12 to 16 officer teams
I would want two bolt action rifles per team and I would go with the .308 R5 Mil Spec rifles which have been refinished by Walter Birdsong after having Smith Vortex Flash suppressors added and Badger Ordnance Rings and bases that makes them rust proof forever. I would use the Trijicon 5-20x50 mildot with green illumination. They may use the 20 on the range but 5x is where they will be working more of the time. Instead of bitching they will be going "COOL" (The 4.5-14x40 Mk4 is standard in LE.)
I would also equip two to four officers on each team with DPMS 16 in LR308 rifles with La Rue mounts and 3-9x42 Super Sniper scopes or alternatively a 2.5-10x56 Trijicon with amber post (their stuff will all be under a hundred yards anyway) the other really good choice would be compact ACOG's . Of the rest of the team half should have shotguns with a http://swfa.com/Trijicon-1x42-Reflex-II-Dual-Illuminated-Sight-P11307.aspx and half should have M4 style AR-15s with http://swfa.com/Trijicon-15x16-Compact-Acog-Rifle-Scope-P4828.aspx second choice for the AR optic would be a Aimpoint Comp M4s. Cheap red dots just wont do the same thing. One possible is when Super Sniper comes out with a low power illuminated variable that would be a good one also if the military doesnt get all of them. Police deal with problems at night an illumination makes a big difference.
I think that when we are talking about dealing with gangs it is really important to have some shotguns because of the intimidation factor - Ive had occasion to pull handguns rifles and shotguns on bad guys and shotguns gain the most compliance. If possible semi auto Benelli M1 Super 90 12 ga riot gun with pistol grip.
To tell you the truth it would be nice if the whole team was using .308 or .243 DPMS 16 in barrel rifles with the 2.5-10x56 amber post Trijicon or ACOG's but you would never get a city to sign off on that I dont think. Law Enforcement engagements are usually under 70 yds and you dont need a lot of magnification at that distance something in the under 6x is fine and I carry a 1.5x or a 3x compact ACOG. The problem is that Law Enforcement has to be accountable for every bullet they fire where the military seems to avoid some of that oversight. I think better one .308 that will take a bad guy down than multiple shots from a .223 The M4 style 16 in DPMS rifles feel almost the same weight as a .223 / 5.56mm and are very accurate. Most agencies however are moving more and more toward .223 so I say if they insist on .223 go Rock River and use 77 gr SMK from Black Hills. It really depends more on what the city fathers will allow because my idea is use less ammo that is more powerful and take the bad guy down right away before he hurts lots of people.
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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I know the trend in LE is toward using M4 style AR-15s as patrol rifles but in reality it would be far better if about one in every three cars had a 20 in barrel .308 bolt action with a fixed 6x Super Sniper scope in dual dovetail Leupold rings to keep it simple and cheap.
Case in point the big shoot out in LA the effective hits were made with bolt action .308s and the .223 body shots met armor and did not stop the bad guy. Sometimes you just have to have the ability to make a head shot especially in a hostage situation. The tendency of guys who start learning rifles with a semi auto is to waste too much ammo. Those of us who started with a single shot 22 learned to place our bullets correctly. While there is definately a need for some high capacity rifles there is still a need for bolt actions and I'd like to see more of them with a detachable high capacity magazine. Accuracy International makes some ten round mags for .308 and Badger Ordnance makes bottom metal for Remmington to accept those mags.
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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My local LE SWAT is slowly switching to the PS90 for there warrant team and QC Front team |
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Ick
Optics Professional ICK, Ed's BOY Joined: October/08/2008 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 817 |
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Interesting information.
I have found the 5.7 fired from my PS90 to be just as accurate as my M4 chambered in 5.56 even at 300 meters. Of course I SUCK and have almost no training.... so take that with a grain of salt.
The PS90 is 50x more convenient to aim, store, operate, handle, and maintain than the M4.
Of course LEO can get the better ammo options that civilians are not permitted to purchase from FN.... so that makes it a pretty darn lethal weapon.
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Ick, Ed's boy,www.ick.bz |
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Duce
Optics Master Joined: September/19/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn00-e.htm
Most of the worlds sniper rifles listed large and standard cal.
Duce
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Duce
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ccoker
Optics Master Joined: February/13/2008 Location: Austin, TX Status: Offline Points: 2041 |
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what about 6.8 ARs with a 1-4 scope?
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Good suggestion, considerably more power than the .223, but won't have as much over penetration power as the .308. |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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c5_nc
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/03/2009 Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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Our LEs keep it simple since an department armor would have to go school. Select Fire Colt M4s (burst, semi, auto) are $780 for LE agencys which makes it very practicle and cheap. Remington 870 shotguns and 700 LTRs in 308 (more 700p models in service but most are leaning toward LTRs now). If they are going to one of the more popular training classes for police snipers (Chandler's class at Blackwater) LTRs in 308 would certainly be what they would recommend.
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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12 man team -
3 - PS90s
2- AR's 223
2- Ar's 308
2 - Benelli M2's
2 - Remmy 700's in 308 with the trimings
1 - Barrett 50
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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I dont think you want a 50 in an urban enviroment. Even 300 WM is frowned upon. Unfortunately most decisions are based on cost.
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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But you may need to disable an engine!
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cyborg
Optics God Gaseous Clay Joined: August/24/2007 Location: North Georgia Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
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I'm liking the idea of one 300 wm per team using the Navy's sniper cartridge for the gang bangers wearing body armor.
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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other
An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects. OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause. Cyborg |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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The fifty will take care of that and some!
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cyborg
Optics God Gaseous Clay Joined: August/24/2007 Location: North Georgia Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
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That is true. Can you imagine the write ups about overkill though? Then there's the pass thru. Not to mention the mess.
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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other
An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects. OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause. Cyborg |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Shoot from an elevated platform where pass through would hit'em in china, lol. I think the lawyers would be on board dont you?
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cyborg
Optics God Gaseous Clay Joined: August/24/2007 Location: North Georgia Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
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Well, if it will get them out of Washington...... A 50 cal it is then. Back to the trial, and out of politics.
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With Freedom comes great responsibility, you cannot have one without the other
An armed public are citizens. A disarmed public are subjects. OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause. Cyborg |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Incenary rounds too!
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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there is no reason that any leo sniper needs to have a 50bmg for a sniper rifle. if they killed some innocent bystander 1/2 a mile away because of a stray 750gr bullet all hell would break loose. imo they dont need anything bigger than a .300wm. on rare occasions i could see a .338 lapua. the .308 is easy and cheap to shoot.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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I agree, though i do remember a show on A&E called DALLAS SWAT or somethign that they used a 50 to shoot an eighteen wheelers motor to disable it because some crazed man highjacked it and was holding women hostage inside and it worked to stop him from driving off.
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