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Scope reticle not level with turrets?

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sakomato View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 19:18
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:


I know you've been sold a bunch of gadgets to help with the minutia of squaring the reticle to the rifle and centering it over the bore--and there's nothing wrong with that--but apparently they took your money without explaining these items will do nothing for the much larger problem of a scope that simply tracks incorrectly. 


And yes, 6 degrees is very easy to see with the naked eye.  Try actually aiming at the center of a clock.  Tilt the rifle such that the upper crosshair intersects 1 minute and the lower intersects 31 minutes.  You can see for yourself--it's pretty dramatic.
 
If I ever have a scope that simply tracks incorrectly then you could be right but since I have never had one through several dozens then my money has been well spent leveling the reticles and teaching me to hold my rifle without a cant.  To me that has not been "minutia" and no one"took" my money and I do not need any explaining.
 
In that quote I clearly said his turret was 5 degrees off, not the crosshairs.  Yes it would be noticeable for a reticle to be off 5 degrees.
 
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Here's a crosshair with a 3 deg tilt:


 
ROTATE the scope a little counterclockwise and guess what, that problem goes away, as does the problem with cant errors in shooting long distance from holdover.  And unless the scope is 1 in _________ (I'm guessing 1000 would fill in that blank) then the scope would track vertically when cranking the turret.
 
And that is close to 4.5 degree tilt if my screen image is square with the bottom of my computer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 21:32
Please tilt your monitor 1.5 deg! Big Smile



There's a lot I don't know squat about but I've been using Adobe Illustrator since 1988 and know how to draw any angle I want. The thicker gradations are 3 deg apart and the green lines are 15 degs.

If the turrets are not square to the reticle, wouldn't it stand to reason that they are pushing the erector off in a direction other than vertical or horizontal?



Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/30/2009 at 22:22
Now that is 3 degrees but when I set a piece of tracing paper and extend the lines on your previous post they do not match up.  Maybe I need to rotate my screen!  Big Grin 
 
Jono, I have never said that a canted turret will not move the crosshairs in a canted direction, maybe they will and maybe they won't or as Jon A says,
 
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:



Note the exterior turret housing, the turrets themselves, etc, cannot be counted on 100% to tell you the direction they'll move the reticle. 
 
 
so who knows which direction they will move the crosshairs. 
 
Look, this is silly.  3 degrees, 4.5 degrees, 5 degrees.....whatever.
 
The point is that I have seen turrets that appeared to be canted until I leveled the reticle and the turret was an optical illusion.  So fix the fixable problems first and verify that there is indeed a problem.  I just offered the best solution to level the reticle and shoot with it level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tjtjwdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 00:33
After reading all of this, what are some of the tools/techniques you use to make sure the scope isn't canted when it's installed?  I've seen all kinds of levels that mount on the base, the scope rings, the level-level-level system.
 
For shooting I've thought about installing those scope levels on the scope tube to assisit with canting while shooting.
 
Jim
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 02:51
Well, if you have a really decent scope with a reticle that is square to a flat base and have a one-piece base like a Picatinny rail, then all you need is a $2.00 set of feeler gauges. Otherwise, if you can level your rifle - either in a cleaning cradle or with an attached bipod, a good way to do it is then sight on a plumb bob line 50 yards away and get the reticle square with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 05:14
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

If I ever have a scope that simply tracks incorrectly then you could be right but since I have never had one through several dozens

You only think that because you have never measured any of them. 

I could tell you the tire pressure on all my vehicles' tires is and has always been exactly 32 psi but no, I've never actually measured any, I don't even own a tire pressure gauge--it says so on the sticker on the door so actually measuring isn't required.  And you'd probably say that may be possible but it'd be highly unlikely.

When you have one of the most prolific scope makers in the world for those who twist turrets telling people that +/- 3 degrees is within their tolerance and perfectly acceptable and fail to "get it straight" with multiple trips to CS, you can take note of things like that or ignore them.  Sure, many other brands won't be that bad but they all have tolerances and they all make mistakes.  Taking it on faith, based upon zero data, that all scopes you've ever had or ever will have are absolutely, positively perfectly straight is highly naive. 

Quote In that quote I clearly said his turret was 5 degrees off, not the crosshairs.  Yes it would be noticeable for a reticle to be off 5 degrees.


The 5 degrees is a delta between two frames of reference.  Which one is "off" and which one is "on" is whichever you decide.

Quote so who knows which direction they will move the crosshairs.


Yes, that's why you watch how they move it.  Then you know.
 
Quote Look, this is silly.


I'll say it is.  You can lead a horse to water.  You can even grab him around the neck and try and dunk his nose into it.  Sadly, that's all you can do.


Edited by Jon A - December/31/2009 at 05:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 05:26
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Here's a crosshair with a 3 deg tilt:

Thanks for posting those.  They illustrate just what a problem this is. 

Often, when somebody finds his scope has this problem he is given the advice "If you're going to hold off with the reticle, level the reticle.  If you're going to dial elevation, level the turret."

While you can somewhat get away with the former, the later isn't going to work very well.  Most people simply couldn't stand to shoot with a reticle that crooked with the world.  While I do believe levels have purpose and can be valuable in many situations, I believe their necessity is a bit overstated at times.  With no level at all, most people in most of their shooting will not hold a reticle that unlevel--they will tend to naturally hold it level.  So when they do, their elevation turret will be moving the reticle sideways.

Not to mention those who crank elevation on the turret then hold windage on the reticle (many, many people do this).  Blah, what a nightmare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 07:32
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

If I ever have a scope that simply tracks incorrectly then you could be right but since I have never had one through several dozens

You only think that because you have never measured any of them. 
 
When you have one of the most prolific scope makers in the world for those who twist turrets telling people that +/- 3 degrees is within their tolerance and perfectly acceptable and fail to "get it straight" with multiple trips to CS, you can take note of things like that or ignore them.  Sure, many other brands won't be that bad but they all have tolerances and they all make mistakes. Taking it on faith, based upon zero data, that all scopes you've ever had or ever will have are absolutely, positively perfectly straight is highly naive. 

Quote In that quote I clearly said his turret was 5 degrees off, not the crosshairs.  Yes it would be noticeable for a reticle to be off 5 degrees.


The 5 degrees is a delta between two frames of reference.  Which one is "off" and which one is "on" is whichever you decide.

Quote so who knows which direction they will move the crosshairs.


Yes, that's why you watch how they move it.  Then you know.
 
Quote Look, this is silly.


I'll say it is.  You can lead a horse to water.  You can even grab him around the neck and try and dunk his nose into it.  Sadly, that's all you can do.
 
As the final step in all scopes I mount I use a bore sighter, at least in the last few years.  After leveling the reticle with the "stuff" I have and going through the "minutia" of uncanting the rifle and aligning the rifle bore and scope axis, I run the crosshairs up the vertical (at least a little way) and the horizontal reticle along the horizontal in the bore sighter and then set the crosshairs.  Does that qualify?  It would seem that if the turret was going to move off the horizontal or vertical then it would show up there.  Does that mean I own a tire gauge and use it?
 
Of course, most of the Leupolds I am handling are coming off rifles and being replaced so maybe that is getting rid of the problems you are encountering.
 
"you have never measured", "highly naive", "lead a horse to water".........There you go with your incendiary language again JonA.  I can see why you are so well liked over on 24hour.  On most forums I would keep the ball rolling and keep swinging but OT is different so I am going to bow out of this one.  So you can have the last post, enjoy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2009 at 16:36
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

I run the crosshairs up the vertical (at least a little way) and the horizontal reticle along the horizontal in the bore sighter and then set the crosshairs.  Does that qualify? 

No.  That would only show a problem when it's dramatically off.  You need to crank a long ways to get an accurate read on more subtle problems.  I typically measure over most of the available travel in the scope.  This makes even the smaller problems easy to see and measure.

While not as dramatic, even just one degree is enough to cause problems.  In my Grendel example above one degree would put me lateral by two clicks, a little over 7".  That may not sound like a lot but imagine the frustration of trying to figure out why you always overestimate the wind when it's blowing one way but underestimate it going the other way.

Life is too short and ammo too expensive not to just avoid such problems by checking out your equipement in the first place.

I'll have to ask your forgiveness for letting my frustrations show through, but you know this is at least the third time I've tried to explain this to you.  You seem to be actively, purposely trying to not understand.   That's fine for you, it's a free country.  But when you jump into threads where somebody has a defective scope and try and convince him some of these gadgets will fix his defective scope you should expect some disagreement.

As far as 24Hour goes, any board allowed to be dominated by a guy like E is a joke in my opinion.  I'll wear dislike from E and his enablers as a badge of honor.  Just in case anybody was wondering, no, re-focussing a scope will not cure its canted reticle.....
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