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Any alternatives to Leupold Mark 4 M3??? |
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WarmBore
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/22/2009 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: December/22/2009 at 23:47 |
Hello,
New here. Trying to find an alternative to the Leupold Mark 4 10x40 M3 Mil Dot. It's a pricey scope but fits my needs exactly (400/600/800/1000 yard silhouette). Just wondering if there's anything out there a little cheaper that would serve?
Thanks to all,
WB
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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Try this:
I would take this over an M4 any day of the week and twice on weekend. ILya
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diggler1833
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/13/2009 Location: Jax, NC Status: Offline Points: 93 |
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You could also look into a US Optics ST-10. By the time you pretty much fully load one up, it is still the same price as s Leupy. If you decide that you don't neek the ERGO or EREK (I didn't feel like I did) you are well under that price.
The new SS is a great deal too.
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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No one
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Cant beat the price on the SS but if that still to much for you then bushnell has a elite 3200 fixed 10x scope too but no AO on it.
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WarmBore
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/22/2009 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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I'll take a look at the others. SS and 3200 are out because of 1/4 MOA adjustments. I need the 1 MOA adjustments for faster LR shots. Should have mentioned that. Thanks,
WB
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Few scopes have 1 MOA elevation adjustments; if that is the big thing, you will be limited in options.
I shoot long range (and though I prefer single-turn or double-turn turrets), 1/4MOA works fine and is much, much more precise at long range.
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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Wouldn't the 1/4 moa be more accurate at long ranges?
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jonoMT
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: November/13/2008 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 4853 |
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1 MOA @ 1000 yards is 10.47" so, yes, being able to make adjustments 1/4 that size (2.62") makes quite a difference. For that matter, so does 1/10 mil adjustments (3.6"). Warmbore, consider too that some turrets allow you to rapidly adjust for elevation, making faster LR shots no problem even if the increments are finer than 1 MOA. High-end scopes such as the Premier or USO are prime examples of this, but someone can tell you how many turns it takes to get an SS from a 100-yard zero to 1000 (less than 10 mils). There are plenty of highly respected tactical shooters who have no problem with a NF scope taking two turns to get there. Besides the SS, take a look at those new Vortex Viper PST scopes, particularly the 2.5-10x44 (5 mils/turn). Edited by jonoMT - December/23/2009 at 11:22 |
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Reaction time is a factor...
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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The SS I linked has 0.1mrad adjustments.
ILya
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Mike McDonald
Optics Journeyman Joined: September/01/2004 Status: Offline Points: 739 |
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There are fast long range shots, and accurate long range shots but there are no fast, accurate long range shots. That MkIV M3 isn't going to hold zero reliably so take a look at some good scopes in mil or moa. A dial is a dial is a dial.
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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What are you intended targets?
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jonoMT
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: November/13/2008 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 4853 |
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Amen! Thanks for cutting to the heart of the matter. If you consider all of what it takes to set up a long-range shot and the time involved, what fraction of that is spent turning a turret? |
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Reaction time is a factor...
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Well said.
For long range, 1MOA is way too course for my purposes.
Also, consider that you can add a BDC turret (like kenton industries) to many scopes that is dialed in for your rifle and your round. With that, spin up to target distance and shoot, that you make 60 clicks rather than 15 is, in my opinion, inconsequential.
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diggler1833
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/13/2009 Location: Jax, NC Status: Offline Points: 93 |
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You can go 1/2MOA with the USO, plus you can get it with a MOA reticle.
Also, there is the Burris XTR 6-24 that has 1MOA adjustments (I think that they are still being made).
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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similarly at 800 yds each click is 2.0 inches.
With the 1/10 mil clicks each click at 600 moves it 2 inches and at 800 each click moves it 2.8 inches which is still quite livable where an 8 inch per click adjustment is way to coarse.
The other issue with the M3 scope is it is designed for a flat base not a plus 20moa or plus 30 moa base. Put a M3 on a plus 20 moa base and you start off 20 inches high at 100 with no possible way to zero the scope -- ask me how I know - Ive been there.
Buy the Super Sniper 10x HD and dont look back. Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/25/2009 at 00:36 |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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I concur.
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Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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WarmBore
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/22/2009 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Having used the M3 (I've never owned one) I'm fully aware of the capabilities. What I was hoping for with my original post was to find a cheaper version.
Everything you mention is true. However 1 MOA is on elevation (.5 MOA on windage). On a 36" sil aimed at COM (score is HIT/MISS) you have plenty of error for sils at any range out to 1000 yards (1000 yards is dicey for my abilities I will admit and because I'm a bad wind doper). The M3 is a great scope to learn doping as it reduces field calculations to 1 click per inch and it's damn near impossible to get lost on the dial. If you need to come up 9" then give it 9 clicks. But it's use is really limited to sils (and/or military applications).
The accuracy (and coarseness) of this scope can be summed up in the following example:
Given: .308 180gr HPBT with MV of 2695 fps and 100 yard zero, prone.
DOPE for 1000 feet Elevation at 60 deg F. calm.
Targets ranged from 50 yards to 130 yards require 0 clicks to make a HIT
140 yards to 180 yards come up 1 click
190 yards to 220 yards come up 2 clicks
230 yards to 260 yards come up 3 clicks
270 yards to 290 yards come up 4 clicks
300 yards to 330 yards come up 5 clicks
340 yards to 360 yards come up 6 clicks
370 yards to 390 yards come up 7 clicks
400 yards to 420 yards come up 8 clicks
430 yards to 450 yards come up 9 clicks
460 yards to 480 yards come up 10 clicks
and on and on out to 1000 yards with a mere 36 clicks (which BTW runs me to within a few clicks of the scope's limit).
These can easily be memorized and you don't have to think in multiple clicks nor do any mental conversions. I have mine memorized out to 600 yards for this DOPE and could probably fake it (guess) out to 800 yards. Beyond that I refer to the data sheet and rely on spotter to read it. Spotter calls range, dope elevation, spotter calls wind, dope windage, breath, fire. Not only that but I don't have to rezero between shots. For example I take a shot at called range of 300 yards (come up 5). My next shot is now called at 450 yards. Instead of rezeroing and then coming up 9 clicks I just come up 4 clicks from my last shot. Fast and accurate enough on sils. If you want to punch small holes then I agree this is not the scope for you. But for HIT/MISS targets where time is a factor there's not much better IMO.
Having said that I believe I have settled on the SS 10x42 with side focus. I tend to think in terms of MOA not MILS so the HD would take an extra mental conversion which uses "thirds" (roughly) per inch. To me that's not very intuitive but if you're already thinking in MILS then why not. So with .25 MOA I can somewhat keep the the calcs inline albeit with many more clicks/turns. The key to my decision was the custom dials I can get from Kenton (thanks Rancid Coolaid). I still don't think it will be quite as fast because I'm going to have to look at the dial between shots instead of just counting clicks but for a third the price I'm willing to try it. I can always pick up an M3 later if I can't make it work.
Merry Christmas to all and thanks for the help.
WB
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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You forgot to add into the equation the rifle itself. Say it is only a rifle capable of consistent 1 MOA, which is actually pretty realistic for most rifles at longer ranges. Suddenly your margin for error is now 20 inches at 1000 yards. Then on top of all that if the shooter is only capable of shooting 1.5 MOA consistently then it is opened up to 30 inches at 1000 yards.
As far as Mils and MOA the reason you feel like you would have a hard time is because you are thinking in inches instead of units of angular measurements. In reality inches have nothing at all to do with it. Once you get yourself to give that up it all makes more sense and becomes easier. Especially if you have a scope that has matching reticle and adjustments. There are no more conversions needing to be done, everything you need to do can be seen right there on your reticle. |
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Jon A
Optics Journeyman Joined: March/14/2008 Location: Everett, WA Status: Offline Points: 670 |
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I can see why you'd like 1 MOA clicks for that sort of competition. Nightforce can do 1 MOA clicks, but that doesn't help you much cost wise. The Burriss 6-24 XTR http://swfa.com/Burris-6-24x50-Xtreme-Tactical-XTR-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P10982.aspx is available with 1 MOA clicks. I know nothing about the scope's repeatability/durability though. Of course USO could do one for you.
Something that may be as helpful as 1 MOA clicks is simply a big knob so you're able to get to 1000 yds on the first turn of the dial, regardless of the click's size. USO Erek is probably the cheapest you'll find on something like their ST-10. IOR's 3-18, various S&B, Premier are others I can think of but they don't help price-wise much, the IOR probably being the cheapest. |
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