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What pistol to get?

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Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2009 at 21:07
Load No
Caliber
Grains/ Grams
Bullet Style
Brand
Use
P9HS1
9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum)
124 / 8.04
PD357HS2H
357 MagnumThunbs Up
130 / 8.42
P40HS2
40 S&W
155 / 10.04
P44HS1
44 Rem. MagnumThunbs Up
240 / 15.55
P45HS1
45 Auto
230 / 14.9

Ballistics Comparisons:
  Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Load No
Caliber
Muzzle
25 Y
50 Y
75 Y
100 Y
P9HS1
9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2009 at 21:08
what a toss up!! both the glock and the xd are excellent, the glock has a great service record and is well known for being one of those guns that will always go bang. the xd is the new kid on the block so to speak, i really like the feel of the xd myself. if i were your friend iwould maybe go some place and shoot both then decide.
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chandalar jack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 12:50
I'm of the same thought with beginners myself......perhaps ole school as you say. I started off both my boys with 617's-10shot cylinders. Cheapest way to go and it has instilled into them handgun awareness. I bought them a Quality revolver from the start, the fit and finish is pleasing to start off with and least of all the name of Smith carries a proud history. I bought both a 6" and a 4" and let them take there pick for whatever reason. My oldest chose the 6" hoping to scope it down the road and the younger liked the 4 as it would be handier and not so heavy......their logic.

Ammo is definately cheaper.....an adult enjoys developing his/her accuracies from hours of cheap practice. Just as in a long gun, breathing, stance and concentration is key. They get to know themselves a heck of alot cheaper......that word is used much but very true. After endless hours of shooting this handgun they either smooth the action from use and/or do an action job, change grips etc.....in the end much pride has developed.

Don't quit! Practice, practice and lots more practice.....when you begin this interest you either finish and become and accomplished handgun shooter for self defense and/or a hunter or just stop while your ahead and sell the gun. Don't develop bad habits from the start ..... it seems to cause one to do just that quit.

I've never had a revolver jam or fail to feed for any reason...obviously it does not have the round capacity as a auto-loader but your of mind to make the first shot count in most instances or it should be ideal.

For a auto-loader I personally like my dbl.action Glock....an LW ultimate trigger stop,#22 recoil spring/SS captured guide rod,3.5 trigger connector, 6"KKM bbl. w/LW 6"" slide and Heine rear and Dawson f/o front. It is one fine shooting piece......accurate to boot, as it should be.

One of the hardest hitting auto rounds you can get.....carry it for protection here where I live. Boat quite abit and can come across many strange 2 legged critters with very weird/dangerous behaviors...moreso than animals. If a black bear gives me some problems and they have a few times in the past and again more than grizz this round has the load combo to put them down....200grn XTP w/800X.

Apologize that I rattled on, figured once again I'd be thorough in explaining my needs. Your friend needs to find his particular caliber and use and go from there. But more importantly is the need to practice....alot. It gets expensive for many.....good luck


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 13:13
I agree with Ufriend (Wes): 1911 is a great gun, but not a beginner gun.

I own a Kahr PM40 and it has been a great gun, a few hiccups with break-in, nothing since.  I would not recommend it as one's only firearm (small, not easy to control) and would only recommend it to someone needing a very covert carry gun.
Additionally, REMF here on the OT had a PM45 and it was pure garbage, went back to Kahr 4 times and never ran right, finally he sold it.

Kahr would be far from the top of my list.


I'd recommend a good .357mag, can shoot 38s for practice, very well-proven stopping power.

If he wants a semi-auto, Beretta makes a very user-friendly gun, XD is a good gun, Glock makes good guns.

Personally, I can't shoot handguns with that acute grip angle, they don't index for me.  I also prefer guns (especially for carry) with a mechanical safety.

I recommend your friend go to a range where he can handle and shoot several different variants.  Something will fit him well and will naturally point well for him, others will not.


Glock has a great track record, so does XD, so does Beretta, so does Browning Hi-Power (but, again, not a beginner gun, in my opinion.)  I recommend he either go with a wheel-gun to learn the basics, or try several autos on for size before dropping his $$.

and, in the end, it is a handgun, it is not intended to lay down a field of fire, no need for 16 rounds, might be nice at times, but allot of dead weight to carry around, and God forbid he ever sends a stray down-range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 14:12
If you  friend can go to a shooting range that rents guns he should try several, how a gun fits his hand is important. If he can he would be ahead to take a defensive hand gun class before he buys. By the time he finishes he should know what feels good to him in his hand and most ranges that sell handguns will take them back in on trade up if he wants too change guns. Too big a frame handgun in you hand is a miserable choice just like one that is too small, a hand gun is a personal thing if you find the right one you keep it till it is worn out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 16:28
I get a bloody hand every time I shoot a hi power.  I like to ride the grip really high and I get very bad hammer bite from them.  The are definitely on the lower end of my want list of pistols.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 17:36
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

To me the 1911 is an expert only gun


You only say that because I carry one.

And, in the words of Ron Burgandy, "I'm kind of a big deal."

Carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 17:39
good thing i happen to have my chest waders on its getting deep in here now!Excellent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 18:00

As far as not happening with revolvers, I remember seeing a lot guys limping into the ER. when quick draw was popular. I got more experience in foot surgery than I was looking for from quick draw revolvers. They were cocking the revolver as their hand went down with the gun still in the holster, yes you can do it and get away with it most of the time but you can shoot your self in the foot of knee, the surgery residents are always happy to get the experience even if the patient is embarrassed about how it happened. No gun is fool proof

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 18:17

Speaking of one shot stops, has there ever been a recorded account of a police, military or civilian engagement where a perp/attacker/bad guy was truly stopped with a single torso shot from ANY of the standard auto pistol rounds, be it .380, 9mm, .40, 10mm, .357, or .45?  Can anyone point to a single account where this happened?  From all the data I've seen, bullet choice is far more important than caliber in terms of real world stopping power, size of wound cavity, and penetration through heavy clothing.  Sure, given the choice, if the dookey hit the fan, I'd rather be armed with a .45 than a 9mm all else being equal, but as with everything else, there are unavoidable tradeoffs to consider, so nothing is ever equal.  The fact is, a 9mm can be much easier to conceal and still have respectable magazine capacity than a .45.  It's also much easier to control in a smaller, lighter handgun, meaning faster follow-up shots.  With quality jacketed hollowpoints, is a 9 really at that much of a disadvantage to a .45, given less recoil and greater capacity, especially given that multiple shots will likely be required with either caliber to stop a threat?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 18:36
Preston,
 
Please bare with us as we have this family discussion.
 
Expert only VS Idiot only?
 
What model gun did Barney Fife cary?  I seemed to notice while mostly Colt Police posatives of various barrel lenghts there would once in a while be a S&W. Still Barney only had ONE bullet for good reason. Whistling My point is that, it was the person, NOT the gun.
 
The 1911 is basically 100 year strong.  The GP-35 is 74 years old.  Both where made to be given to raw recruits.  We've had this discussion before.  Frankly, there is not such thing as an Idiots weapon depsite this threads drift.  
 
Preston's friend may be new to this, but that does not make them a complete idiot. This new person does not need an idiots weapon, but a gun that they can get a good solid grip on and have solid trigger control.  Many of the guns suggested may not offer that.  80% of this thread has been about everything, but fitting the shooter.
 
Preston,
 
Revolver have thier own special sets of problems. Those problems are differant. That does not make one gun better than another, it just means you have to understand the mission and make things fit.
 
Gun has to fit the hand, because it is easier to change guns, than hands. You need to have the grip in alignment with the bore as "squarely" as you can for best results.  The goal is to move the trigger in a straight back motion without distrubing the sights. Again the more square the web of the hand is in alignment with both the bore and bone structure of the arm the better.
 
 The finger has to be able to reach the trigger with enough meat to move the trigger with persesion.  This is hard as there are so many "lawyered up" trigger for the "fifes".  The one trigger position is what makes the 1911, GP-35, Glock and now XD so popular.  The trigger is always the same straight pull. Now because of the "Fifes" we have double action triggers to solve a problem by making it worse in order prevent the problem.  If you followed that, then you will quickly understand, WHY such a trigger is popular by government officals in charge of such matters. Wink
 
I find the Brownings, Sigs, and CZ's fit my hand better than many of the other makers.  The also have better triggers in many cases. The CZ's have the best triggers of a factory gun. They allow for "Fife carry" or Cocked and locked.  The Better Sig models are a close second.  The Sig 229 would make a great carry gun as well. It is popular with the Feds too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 20:28
From 1973 to 1993, U.S. manufacturers
produced
6.6 million .357 Magnum revolvers
.........................................................................because they work.
 
 
One shot stop statistics by caliber;
FBI Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.
ATK  Wound Balistics testing 


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/14/2009 at 20:59

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 338LAPUASLAP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 22:01
Originally posted by Preston Preston wrote:

I have a friend who wants to get a pistol and his carry permit this will be his first pistol and he wants either a 9mm or a .40 he was looking at a Kahr CW9 but I keep telling him to also look at the Glocks and Springfield XD's... does anyone have a Kahr CW9 or has anyone shot one? What do you think about the Kahr CW9 would he be better off with a Glock or XD?
 
The Kahr CW9 is to some a mini hand cannon...Kitty Cats...
 
Once you are use to it is a perfect summer carry gun...
 
I have one and it serves me well...
 
Also maybe look at the P2000s/k w/ decocker...v3 I believe...
 
The glocks are seemingly unfailing but not as easy of a carry the Kahr is superb for carry...
 
I would have to disagree that he would be better off for a carry with the XD...
 
Possibly the Sig P239 slim single stack...
 
Make sure whatever he gets does not have a safety but has a decocker...
 
I agree about the CZ's the PO6 or PO1 are the best money can buy right now 4-5 and they are the best natural pointing gun on the market... PO6 might be my #1 recommendation right now as far as market goes...


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - December/14/2009 at 22:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gr8plmbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 22:15

dont buy on adds or what this guy says or what that guy says go to a gun store see which one FITS!! it must be easy to carry nobody want to carry a boat anchor allday also try differnt size cal. 38,9mm.40,45 revolver semi ask to rent gun most gun stores will rent them also a class on personal defence is a good idea maybe a lesson or two and practice,practice off hand, shooting postion because there is no perfect situation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 16:50
For a first handgun, it's hard to beat a .22 revolver or automatic.  If he wants to "carry" his first handgun  (on his waist), then it's hard to beat an S&W Model 60 in 3" .357 with adjustable sights.  This will let him practice and learn with mild .38 special loads, but bring the heat when needed.  He can trade it off later if he likes something else better after learning to shoot.
 
Kahr's service department is great, but they've had too many quality control problems for me to recommend them to anyone but a seasoned handgunner who will know whether a prob lem is the gun's fault or his. 
 
Glocks have a lot going for them, but have two shortcomings.  The grip is too large for small or medium hands, and the trigger pull isn't the greatest.
 
Probably the most important thing is for him to really like whatever gun he gets.  Trying out different handguns by shooting them is the best way to establish this.  (That's what friends and firing ranges for!)  If he doesn't really like the gun, then he won't practice with it or carry it, and he won't become a shooter.  That would be a real shame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 17:05
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

Originally posted by Preston Preston wrote:

I have a friend who wants to get a pistol and his carry permit this will be his first pistol and he wants either a 9mm or a .40 he was looking at a Kahr CW9 but I keep telling him to also look at the Glocks and Springfield XD's... does anyone have a Kahr CW9 or has anyone shot one? What do you think about the Kahr CW9 would he be better off with a Glock or XD?
 
The Kahr CW9 is to some a mini hand cannon...Kitty Cats...
 
Once you are use to it is a perfect summer carry gun...
 
I have one and it serves me well...
 
Also maybe look at the P2000s/k w/ decocker...v3 I believe...
 
The glocks are seemingly unfailing but not as easy of a carry the Kahr is superb for carry...
 
I would have to disagree that he would be better off for a carry with the XD...
 
Possibly the Sig P239 slim single stack...
 
Make sure whatever he gets does not have a safety but has a decocker...
 
I agree about the CZ's the PO6 or PO1 are the best money can buy right now 4-5 and they are the best natural pointing gun on the market... PO6 might be my #1 recommendation right now as far as market goes...



Opinions vary, I'd rather have an external safety than a decocker, then again, I carry mostly 1911s so decock ain't happening (Para is as close as it gets, and I would avoid the LDA system.)

H&K makes a fine weapon, but kinda pricey.  I have an HK45 that I really like.

Kahr owners (previous owners) either really like them or hate them - as with most things, I guess.  Mine has been great, REMF's was garbage he almost had to give away.  True, Customer Service was on top of it each time, they even paid shipping both ways and included a few new mags, but what good is a Customer Service department when the gun jams in a pinch?

Get what fits, forget the "field of fire" or cool-ness factor.  If he shoots a .22LR well, carry a .22LR. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 23:27
They will be back here in Feb hopefully sooner and we can go look at the options.  I feel like the Kahr is over priced and not a good choice.  In that size I have a .357 Smith & Wesson model 640

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2009 at 09:49
I have a sig 229 for daily carry.  Can change grips for hand size and has a decocker not a safety.  You can get the factory refurbished units for about 500 these days and sig still backs them.  And you still have arguebly one of the toughest guns made.  caliper varies but if you can't hit in at least two shots it dont matter mag capacity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Preston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2009 at 10:02
I agree one well placed shot is more important than mag. capacity
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2009 at 02:30
Hi guys,
I'm new to the forum and first of all I have to say that I like it a lot; I have read a lot of the postings regarding optics and without a doubt there are some individuals that indeed know what they are talking about; thank you very much for all the information, I have learned a lot since I came here about a month ago.
Second, I see there are guys who serve or have served in the military or in law enforcement, and I take this opportunity to thank you for your service to this great country of which I am a proud citizen since 2000; (I was born and raised in Mexico City); may God bless you all for your sacrifice; thank you very much on behalf of my entire family and friends.
And finally, since you guys are talking hand guns, I have to give in my two cents worth; it is just my experience and my opinion but I hope it helps.
I absolutely agree with the guy who said (sorry, I'm bad with names) to go try the pistol first, and also agree with the guy who said that caliber matters more than number of rounds carried.
My father was an avid hunter and taught me a lot about guns, he was also the chief of a private bank protection organization and therefore he could legally carry a gun in Mexico; he would have agreed with the guy who supports revolvers, since he carried a S&W Model 27, of course I'm talking 45 years ago (I'm almost 51).
Peculiarly, he taught me how to shoot when I was about six, with a semi-auto Walther in .25 cal; I have no remembrance as to the model, but it was easy to shoot and fairly accurate up to 25 meters or so.
When I finally became a citizen of the USA; the first thing I did was to throw away the green card, of course, but I acquired a  Springfield 1911A1, the GI model; which I hated because of the bite on the web of my hand, it didn't have a beavertail safety grip; it was made in Brazil which was surprising to me at the time.
My next purchase after that was a Glock 17, which is 9mm; I didn't like the way it fit in my hand but I really like the trigger, so I bought a Springfield XD when they just came out, and my hand loved that pistol, very comfortable to shoot but had a few of the ejection problems already mentioned, I hear the new XD "M" factor is a lot better.
I also bought a CZ 75B which is very similar to the Browning High Power, and I love it, it is reliable and comfortable, and being 9mm is also cheap to shoot, but it is a heavy gun since the frame and the slide are all steel.
Then I got a CZ 75 P01, which is about the same as the 75B, but lighter, with a rail; also very reliable, I have never experienced any malfunctions with any of them.
I also Got a Heckler and Koch USP Expert .45ACP but it does not qualify for a comfortable carry gun in my opinion because of the length of it, a regular USP should do the trick for a carry gun, or even a compact , I love the double recoil spring, which reduces recoil to the level of a 9mm.  One thing I love about the HK is that it eats any cartridge I feed it, even re-loads from my bench.
I also got a Sig Sauer P226, a P226X5, and a P229, the 229 is in my opinion the best carry gun of all mentioned, even though the X5 is the most accurate.  I really like the night sights on the P229, the rail might be a bother if you are not used to it, but it is easy to holster.
I might be too old fashioned, but if I had a permit, an almost impossible feat in California where I live, I would carry my Dan Wesson 1911 Bobtail Commander, of course in .45.; I think it's the perfect size, and it also has night sights, Trijicon T3s.  It is a work of art, in my opinion, very accurate and reliable.  This is the gun I keep on my night stand, right next to my bible, so I have a sword available too.
Anyway; my apologies for rambling a little bit; but you guys giving counsel are right on; get a pistol that fits your hand, or you can customize to your hand; manage the recoil well, learn trigger control, stance, etc; and I also agree, there is no fool proof fire arm; the safety should be your finger.
Just one more note, for what is worth; I took a CCW class a couple of years ago, the instructors were all L.A. SWAT; and all of them without exception, carried a 1911; most of them S&Ws and a few Kimbers.
Thanks for reading and sharing your knowledge, I am still learning, and this is what I like about this forum, people are very respectful and willing to share their knowledge.
Anyway, Merry Christmas to all.
Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.
Proverbs 17:28
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