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Help me justify buying a new scope!!!!

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CodyBrown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help me justify buying a new scope!!!!
    Posted: November/28/2009 at 17:16
So I currently have a Leupold 6.5-20x40 LR scope with a fine duplex on a 22-250. Someone offered me a 8.5-25x50 LR with the varmint hunters recticle for a hell of a deal. I really wanted the varmint hunters recticle when I bought the original scope, but the store was sold out, and I needed the scope for a last minute hunt. The 8.5-25 is a little overkill in my opinion, but I don't have to use the higher power if I don't need it. Most the time it stays at 10-12x as is, but it would be nice to be able to crank it up for long range paper shooting if I wanted to, and I would really like to have the varmint hunters recticle. I looked it up, and it retails at about $1100, and the guy wants $500 for it, and it could pass as new. It was mounted on a safe queen, and supposedly he never even shot with it. So what say you? I'm pretty sure my decision is already made, but I need a little push over the edge. BTW I paid $580 for my current 6.5-20....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 19:16
the varmit reticle (usable) will not be calibrated correctly at any lower power, if you attempt to use it's hold over reticle around 10-12x your shots will be around 10 moa high.  
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trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 19:52
I don't think that's the push he was looking for Dale.......however, as usual, you are absolutely correct. With the mag. turned down a second focal plane reticle will not be calibrated for your bullet drop. May save him from making a mistake. Good to know these things up front.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:00
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

the varmit reticle (usable) will not be calibrated correctly at any lower power, if you attempt to use it's hold over reticle around 10-12x your shots will be around 10 moa high.  


Can you clarify that a little for me?
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trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:27
The reticle in that scope is in the second image plane. What this means is that as you turn up the magnification ring, the target that you are trying to shoot will be magnified, but the reticle will stay the same size. The reticle is not magnified by the scope, and will always remain the same size. If one of the marks appears to subtend 3 moa down from the main crosshairs at 20x, if you dial back to 10x and aim with the same mark you will be holding over 6 moa instead. If you hold your crosshair on a target, and look how far down it is to the first mark down, and turn up the magnification, the marks will appear to move closer together on the target. I hope some of this makes sense. It's hard to explain without seeing it.

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CodyBrown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:34
So how is that supposed to be an improvement on a scope recticle? There must be a trick to it, or Leupold wouldn't have made it. Kinda defeats the purpose of using holdover marks doesn't it?
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trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:38
You just have to know what power to have the scope on to make the marks hit at the yardage you want to, or know where the marks will hit at the magnification you want to run the scope at. It's not a perfect system, but I've used my Rapid-Z reticle to make some shots that I doubt I'd have made without some kind of reference. No matter what you do, there is no magical long range optic that makes long range shooting a breeze. You still have to learn the system.

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Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 21:03

There is a solution but first focal plane scopes are usually expensive.   With FFP the reticle appear to change size as you change the magnification.    The mil dots or mil marks can be used for hold over at any power  (same same). 

Leupold 8.5-25x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope TMR Leupold 8.5-25x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - LEU63055
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
$1,849.95 

Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope TMR Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - LEU64665
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
$1,699.95 
Add Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope to Cart
Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope TMR Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - LEU65495
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
$1,599.95 
SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS39X42
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 0.1 MRAD
$599.95 
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Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope Illuminated Gen II XR Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope
Stock # - PRH09009
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Illuminated Gen II XR
  • 34mm
  • Double-Turn 0.1 MRad (27 mrad of Elevation travel)
  • Counter-Clockwise
  • Free Flip Open Lens Caps w/ Purchase
$2,599.00 
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Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - November/28/2009 at 21:11

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Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 21:09
The reason people wind up not entirely happy with high power balistic reticles is that they dial the power down to stalk game  or when the sun goes down to brighten up the scope and they wind up shooting over the game because the center X is all that holds true at lower than max magnification.   With tactical knobs you dial in correction and its good at any power.  Leupold CDS  Custom dial system scopes are a  hunting version with knobs custom engraved to match the rifle caliber and ammo you use.  Put it on 2 for 200 yds  or put it on 4 for 400 yds hold dead on and you are on target.
Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-3L Riflescope Duplex Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-3L Riflescope
Stock # - LEU59275
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$839.95 
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Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - November/28/2009 at 21:12

"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do".
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CodyBrown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 22:16
So if I'm holding my crosshair at one notch below center at 100 yards at 10x, the change would become 2 times greater at 20x? Is that kinda how it works? I've only used standard rifle scopes before, so the whole ballistic notching is a new concept to me. Basically I would need to shoot the rifle at different ranges at different magnifications to learn the charistics of the scope and become familiar with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:32
So does the center of the recticle stay correct at all magnifications at all ranges with second focal plane scopes?
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trigger29 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:47
The center of the reticle shouldn't move. If you dialed back the magnification for shorter shots, and only used the main crosshair, you would be fine. Just don't expect the holdover marks to be accurate at more than one power.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:58
Yes. At least on most scopes, anyway! 
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 09:32
Ok, so technically all that I would be able to use reliably at all powers would be the normal crosshair and the windage marks then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 17:41
Windage marks are going to change with magnification also in a SFP scope. Basically, only the center cross hair stays the same. In a first focal plane scope all reticle marks "move" with magnification, thus allowing the hold-offs to stay the same.  
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 20:53
Well damn.....the only advantage I see is that it would give me 5x more magnification and a 10mm larger objective then, unless I just left it on one power setting......I"m kinda glad I got the fine duplex on my 6.5-20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2009 at 10:51
Cody, that's a good deal on the scope, and I'd recommend you buy it if the magnification range would be useful for your application.  The V.H. reticle is still a good, simple reticle, despite the limitations of it being in the second focal plane.  Just learn where your point of impact is at a couple different powers and turn the magnification to those powers when using the reticle for drop and windage compensation.  As Trigger stated, no reticle system is perfect, and no reticle will be perfectly calibrated to your rifle and load anyway, regardless of whether it's in first or second focal plane.  First focal scopes just eliminate magnification setting as a consideration when ranging or using holdover.  The V.H. reticle is very useful for long range varmint sniping once you learn how to use it, which you'd have to do with any ballistic multi-point reticle anyway.  There is no easy, magic reticle that makes long range shooting a breeze without involving a lot of practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CodyBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 11:51
Well I've thought it over, and I'm going to buy the scope. I'll take the 6.5-20 off and mount it on the new 30-06 I'm getting I think. Thank you all for your help. I know it will take a little getting used to and practice, but it seems like a good scope once you're familiar with it. I will just use the center crosshair until I'm comfortable using the windage and elevation markings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelbenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 19:45
There you go, you knew you were going to buy it anyway.  Ted, you my brother are a smooth takin' devil!!!  Roll on Floor Laughing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 20:54
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Cody, that's a good deal on the scope, and I'd recommend you buy it if the magnification range would be useful for your application.  The V.H. reticle is still a good, simple reticle, despite the limitations of it being in the second focal plane.  Just learn where your point of impact is at a couple different powers and turn the magnification to those powers when using the reticle for drop and windage compensation.  As Trigger stated, no reticle system is perfect, and no reticle will be perfectly calibrated to your rifle and load anyway, regardless of whether it's in first or second focal plane.  First focal scopes just eliminate magnification setting as a consideration when ranging or using holdover.  The V.H. reticle is very useful for long range varmint sniping once you learn how to use it, which you'd have to do with any ballistic multi-point reticle anyway.  There is no easy, magic reticle that makes long range shooting a breeze without involving a lot of practice.
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