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Grouping of "good load" vs "bad load" |
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robbie
Optics Apprentice Joined: November/13/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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Posted: October/18/2009 at 00:45 |
I know that certain guns like certain loads to produce best accuracy. I believe that most would even say that each particular gun (even between guns of the same make, model, and caliber) can have a different load that it likes. My question is how much difference does the load make?
Lets say the perfect load will produce groups the size of a quarter, or a 1" pattern. How bad could a non-favorable load be? Would it shoot a 1.5" group? 2"? 5"?
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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guns and loads produce cones of fire -- a 3 dimension radial dispersion. a worn NFA barrel can go to 5" in the cone of fire. It depends on the shooters need, a cone of fire of 1" would not work for a target shooter, but be fine for hunting, 2" would not work for hunting (as an example) but works great on NFA Ak-47's
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lucytuma
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: November/25/2007 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 5389 |
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I've had/seen rifles that are capable of MOA, that with the wrong load open up to the 4"-8" range. Though most rifles I have will group almost any load to 3". I've had two extremely finicky rifles, one a Ruger MKII in 7mm and the other a Remington 700 in 300RUM. The Ruger I never did figure out so I got ride of it. The Ultra Mag (a friends gun) we finally figured out and got a respectable load which groups about 1.5". |
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
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Terry Lamb
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/19/2009 Location: Sagle, Idaho Status: Offline Points: 150 |
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I took a peak at my range log book, as an example of pattern changing with load. In my old 03-A3 30-06, with the 165-gr Hornady SST, 100yds, results were:
48.5 grs H4895 2.4 inch
49.0 " 1.8
50.0 " 1.7
50.5 " 1.5
51.0 " 0.8
51.5 " 1.9 Some pressure indications on cases
52.0 " 2.8 Pronounced hi pressure indication
The loads above and below the 51.0 grains were subsequently confirmed with additional range sessions and repeated similar results. In this rifle, with this bullet, there was clearly a "sweet spot" in its preferred load.
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Terry Lamb
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robbie
Optics Apprentice Joined: November/13/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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Thanks, Terry - Thats what I was looking for.
Soooooooo - If one is shooting 3-4 inch groups (at 100 yds), don't blame the load or waste time looking for a better load. Guess that leaves scope, mount, or personal error.
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trigger29
Optics Master Extraordinaire X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ? Joined: September/29/2007 Location: South Dakota Status: Offline Points: 4353 |
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." |
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JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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If you were to look in a Reloading Manual and it tells you the most accurate powder for the particular grain of bullet you want to load. What is that really telling you? Does it mean thats what they found for the rifle that THEY tested? Certainly they are not saying that is the most accurate powder/bullet combo on that page for all rifles of that particular caliber, right?
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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almost all of them are just saying that max. accuracy never comes at the max of pressure (and thus velocity). because so many avenues can give results, there is obviously no deterministic solution, if there were , every one would be doing it.
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JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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I do not understand what you mean Dale.. Lets go to my Barnes book as an example, lets say its says for a 7mm 150gr TTSX BT for the "MOST ACCURATE LOAD" use IMR 4831.. That must mean they tested all those powders on that page (maybe 15 of em) with the TTSX 150gr. bullet.. The IMR 4831 was the most accurate it says....So why would you bother trying the RL 19 or RL 22 or whatever other powder there is on the page?
Keep in mind I made all that up, I cannot remember what powders were tested..
JF
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Trays 7940
Optics Master Joined: August/09/2009 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1149 |
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I have found that the "most accurate" load is not always the most accurate in my rifles.
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JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Thanks Trays!
Thats all I wanted to know, otherwise I might be searching all over the country looking for that magic powder that is on page whatever which suggests its the Most Accurate. Only then to find out that its not the most accurate for my rifle. Im not sure about anywhere else but I cannot find just any powder I want around the area I live...
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tjtjwdad
Optics Journeyman Joined: December/11/2007 Status: Offline Points: 365 |
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Also; Loads that shoot good at 100 yards don't always shhot good as the distance increases.
Just a thought...
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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the load matters to a certain extent. some custom rifles will shoot everything you feed them pretty well. problem is that it will only shoot a load or two exceptionally well. imo the better the quality of the barrel the better it will shoot whatever you feed it. now, you must recognize that you have to match the twist up with the proper weights to make it work.
the load i use in my 6.5rem mag is the nosler books fastest load for the 130gr accubond, and it is certainly not the most accurate load they cited, the same went for the load i used with 120gr tsx's, the fastest load in the book was the one. you move to my .264 and it hated pretty much everything i fed it. then i bought some h-1000 and things started to change, and now i use a middle of the road weight charge for it. my .300win mag really liked a bunch of imr 4831, where my .300wsm was more of a middle of the road. my dads 30-06 likes 58gr of imr 4831, my 30-06 wouldnt shoot that load into a 6" plate @100, but i load up 50.5 gr of imr 4064 and i have a beautiful 1" group every time. in other words you simply cannot predict what will work and what wont, you just gotta try it. |
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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jonoMT
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: November/13/2008 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 4853 |
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I've never wanted to test too many powders and haven't had to. Basically, I start out by looking for the powders that produce the highest velocities for the bullet weight/type and cartridge that I'm using and just load test with those. Like Dale says most loads do not obtain the best accuracy at the highest pressures so I know choosing these powders I have room to back off.
Re: loads that shoot good at 100 yards but not out at longer distances. I haven't experienced this. But maybe that's because all my loads are with high BC boat tails. If a load shoots well at 300 yards it shoots well at 100 yards. Same applies in reverse. I also zero at 100 yards because there's less variation from wind and you can see the target better. If you plan to shoot at long distances, once you have that zero in you can check to your real world results out as far as you can shoot against a ballistics program like JBM. |
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Reaction time is a factor...
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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most loading information in published sources are based upon guys who "might" shoot a 1000 rds thru their guns in the course of the ownership of the gun. This amounts to a relatively small amount of powder. So the powder companies go to a great deal of trouble making sure that canister powders are can to can as uniform as they companies can make them. I've gotten exceptionally accuracy from military surplus powders, bought in bulk, 50 lbs at a time in some cases , and adjust everything according to that lot of powder and primers. Variations in lots even in canister powders purchased one at a time over a long period of time can show quite a spread. Personally I have no idea why reloading books put in most accurate load-- I don't have any idea what it means.
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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all very good points and all are very true. |
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Yes, Very good information GuysIm glad I asked those questions. I used to think it was always me, my shooting. Which Im sure is true to a point, but just as often its the load and if the rifle likes it or not it seems...My sons Mod 70 Winchester 7mm Mag. is not picky but all my rifles seem to be pretty fussy...
Ive learned so much from this forum, its great....
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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after shooting and reloading for a while -- you will gain an intuition, why and how to adjust for the variations you are seeing. Sometimes one can put together a load and a gun and this bad feeling develops-- are you willing to put the cost of load development or just walk away. Having done this with literally hundreds of guns, I would say that 95% of most problems is the stock.
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JF4545
Optics Master Joined: March/31/2009 Location: Washington Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Dale,
Do you mean the way the rifle fits into the stock? or the overall design of the stock and how it fits you? Can you be more specific please?
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Longhunter
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/02/2006 Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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The answer is that the load can make a LOT of difference. For example, my first big game rifle was a Remington 742 in .30-06. Shooting Remington factory loads (150 grain) it shot 4 to 4 1/2 inch groups.
I bought a little Lee Loader, and went to work. After one or two tries, I had a load that punched out consistent 1 1/2 inch groups using the brass from the factory loads!
Happily, factory loads have become more accurate since then.
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