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$200-$500 bino's recommendation

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NDhunter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NDhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2009 at 17:52
Originally posted by JGRaider JGRaider wrote:

You're right ND.  If however, as is the case with mine which there is no glare, halo, etc, they would be considered alpha glass.  What's your impression of the EDG?
 
What is Alpha class in binoculars?  There may be different ideas here but many would say
that Alpha class optics come from the very best in the world.  That would include Zeiss,
Leica, and Swarovski.  The Nikon EDG is new and Nikons best effort to date.  Some compare
it as an equal to the Alphas.  I really like the EDG 10x42's that I have.  I recently pointed out that SWFA has on the sample list a very good value for these, in my opinion.
 
There has been a lot of fanfare for the ZenRay, and I tried some but did not have the
satisfaction that I was looking for.  I am not out to berate them, but only am pointing out
that some people have found deficiencies.  I have experience with some very nice glass
so sometimes I can be a larger critic than someone who has not.
 
The term Alpha glass should be reserved for the very best.
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Klamath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2009 at 18:21
Originally posted by NDhunter NDhunter wrote:

What is Alpha class in binoculars?  ...The term Alpha glass should be reserved for the very best.
 
That question was asked on another forum recently.  No answer emerged, nor will a clear answer ever emerge.  As for the alpha designation being for the best, I agree, just that "best" will be a pretty elusive thing to put your tag on. 
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 00:56
I wouldn't even put the ZR ED2 into the second tier! You are saying that the ZR is as good as Meopta Meostar B1's, Steiner Peregrine XP's, Nikon LX's, Minox APO's, Docter B/CF's..... These are second tier binoculars NOT ZR's! There is SO much more to a bin (and any product) than just one aspect of it. The ZR has proven to be a good view that does a good job at controlling CA but thats it. And to try to elevate them is just sillyRoll on Floor Laughing They are nowhere nere the overall build quality of any of the above let alone a Alpha.... And you don't have to believe me ask the optic experts like Holger or EDZ.... But then they have already answered this and have come out on the side of the above and the Alphas NOT the ZRs!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 08:44
Originally posted by CLRobles CLRobles wrote:

I wouldn't even put the ZR ED2 into the second tier! You are saying that the ZR is as good as Meopta Meostar B1's, Steiner Peregrine XP's, Nikon LX's, Minox APO's, Docter B/CF's..... These are second tier binoculars NOT ZR's! There is SO much more to a bin (and any product) than just one aspect of it. The ZR has proven to be a good view that does a good job at controlling CA but thats it. And to try to elevate them is just sillyRoll on Floor Laughing They are nowhere nere the overall build quality of any of the above let alone a Alpha.... And you don't have to believe me ask the optic experts like Holger or EDZ.... But then they have already answered this and have come out on the side of the above and the Alphas NOT the ZRs!


Glad to see you've migrated over here to this forum with your smartazz comments.  I don't need to ask anybody, I actually look through them and make up my own mind.   
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Klamath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 10:12
Robles,
 
Well I wondered where you would pop up again, and here you are.  CLR, the "I don't have to see it to evaluate it" instant bino guy. Like I will believe anything you have to say.  If you haven't looked at the ZR, how much other stuff have you not looked at, but feel free to evaluate? 
 
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 12:06
JG, The man that owns everything yet can only come on to cuss! hahaha You big kidder! I love reading your most intellectual responsesExcellent
Steve, We have already asked what your association with ZR is to only get a deafening response of ........ Nothing! Well I'll ask again Steve! What is your relationship with ZR? Do you work for them? Do you Rep for them? Have you received product to keep, use, or have been traded newer product to replace older ZR bins to help with design or evaluation?  Their has to be a relationship here Steve so why not just put it out there and stop acting like a honest evaluator, which you are not! And if you are then please tell me which one of the second tier binoculars that I posted that the ZR are better than and you would tell someone that they outperform on a overall scale? Which ones Steve? Add the Kowa Genesis to this list..... another second tier binocular.... Is the ZR in this league Steve? Please do enlighten us!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 12:23
Give me a break, Steve is always posting honest reviews about many brands of optics.  He is one of our bino guru's who's opinion many of us highly value. 

More than just Steve have been testing the ZR optics and they are all very pleased with the price to performance ratio.  Pretty much all of them are coming to the same conclusion as well that they are a good contender to the Alpha class.  Will they stand up to the test of time?  Who knows at this point.  But the point is for $400 you can get a very nice set of binos that has great glass and up to this point in time are getting great durability reviews. 

So get off your high horse, if you are here to participate and share your insights then great.  If you are just here to argue and get in a pissing match that is obviously coming from some other forum then piss off.
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 12:40
Ah, But you just proved my point! Thank youExcellent They are a very nice $400 binocular! Now, with all of the ZR propaganda going on I think that I AM offering good insightBig Smile If you believe that someone, whether they have belonged and participated to a certain forum, club, or group, can speak out so unbiased about something and not be challenged on it then fine..... Go on believing everything you read and hear from buddiesWink I on the other hand believe that when someone that is suppose to have some authority on something speaks so biased about it they need to be challenged.... They need to prove their statements and back up their words! Have you asked Steve of his relationship with ZR? Please do ask.... Maybe he will answer if you ask himBig Smile   Now I will ask you the same question since you are backing his position....  Which one of the second tier binoculars (Kowa Genesis, Minox APO, Meopta Meostar B1, Nikon Premier, Docter B/CF) are the ZR exactly better than?  Which one? If they are not then someone coming on a forum boasting that they are is either missinformed (surely not one of your guru's) or they are spreading propaganda for some reason..... Typically for gain! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 12:55
The way I see it is every post you have made on this forum has been bashing ZR and trying to discredit those who do talk highly of them.  So that begs the question is whom are you affiliated with or is paying you to come on forums and trash on the ZRs.  To quote yourself Because "If you believe that someone, whether they have belonged and participated to a certain forum, club, or group, can speak out so unbiased about something and not be challenged on it then fine," and all that.

Trying to compare scopes and bino's is virtually impossible.  Every person is going to see them differently whether it is because they see better out of one pair.  Or because they have a loyalty to one brand.  Or because they like the way one pair fits their face.  Or they just don't want to admit that maybe they could have gotten a pair for $400 that did all they needed instead of spending $1600.  Who knows why.   The fact is it is great that ZR is giving us such an option at $400.  Heck not to long ago Meopta was in teh same place, people didn't believe that you could get such a nice pair of binos that was really pushing into the so called Alpha league for half the price.  Why is it such a stretch that someone else might have done it again.

As far as your question, I have no idea.  I am certainly not a bino expert.  I own a pair of Meopta 10x and love them.  But will I consider the ZRs if I ever decide to buy another pair?  I absolutally will, I will get a pair to test drive from Chris and see if they work as good for me.  If they do the great, I just saved a butt load of money.  If not I will look at something else.  No big deal. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 13:25
Please quote my reply where I bashed ZR..... I have always said that they are a very good $400 binocular. BUT, it is what it isSmile They are a $400 bin and what I want to get across is just that! I have always said that they ARE NOT a alpha and have been reviewed enough by true optic experts to have already aired that out. Your Meoptas are a much better bin by a storied Chec firm that has been a contributor to driving the technology in optics world for almost a century. They are very good bins and no the ZR are not on their level.....
As to if I have a connection to any optic firm or retail outlet. The answer is no. I did for a number of years work for a highend dealer in Phoenix, AZ but have not been with them for 7 years. My only predjudice is towards execellence in build qualityBig Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 13:43
OK lets get to CLRobles here.  I have had enough of his crap and find it necessary to evaluate some of his positions.
 
For the benefit of those here on OT, this clown has shown up on a couple of other forums with the same line of stuffing.  On BF he tells those participants that he is simply trying to give us all the benefit of his "over two and a half decades" of experience.  OK fine, that is what these forums are for, for everybody to talk about their experiences.  It was clear in his case his 2.5 decades were somehow superior and if we would all just listen carefully to him, he would fix us all. Over on BF he made an amazing rationalization, based on his countless hours of using optics, that he does not need to look at an optic to evaluate it.
 
Over on 24 when John Barsness quite correctly pegged this clown as apparently not having much experience with binoculars god old CLR (CZDiesel there) responded basically  "LOL, I have owned literally tens of thousands of binoculars in my life and have spent countless hours behind them".
 
Now, I have a college degree and everything, but at heart I am a simple sort.  When I hear two and one half decades, I interpret it to mean 25 years.  This is based on CLR/CZD's own posts, so I am inventing nothing.  I also interpret tens of thousands of binoculars to mean something between 10,000 and 90,000+ binoculars.  That number seems to be ridiculous on the low end and absurd on the high end, but hey, that's just me.
 
So let's do some simple math here.  Not really knowing how to precisely define his statement of "ten's of thousands" I will arbitrarily use 20,000.  Why?  It is a nice even number, keeps everything on the left side of the decimal and it divides in half nicely. So 20,000 binoculars divided by 25 years.  I suppose everybody is with me here?  CLR's own statements are the source.  That is 800 binoculars per year, at $1,000 per unit (that is my figure only, but seems a reasonable figure for average careful alpha binocular purchases).  By my simple nature, I make that to be an annual outlay on CLR's part of $800,000 per year.  Does anybody believe that fantasy?   According to CLR/CZD he has done his thing for 25 years.  $800,000 per year multiplied by 25 years is $20,000,000.  Twenty freaking million dollars.  CLR/CZD, how dumb do you think people are?  Or on the flip side, how damn smart do you really think you are?  If it needs to be pointed out, people are probably smarter than you.
 
Now lets divide this in half, anybody buying $400,000 a year?  Divide that in half again.  Anybody buying $200,000 per year?  How many times does this fantasy need to be divided in half before reality is achieved?  Reduce it by a factor of ten and it still beggars belief.  I will not venture a guess.  I will not even venture a guess how much he has lost in reselling all of that amount of binoculars, or in how much storage space he needs to store them, or on what a logistical system he has to have to keep track of all of them. 
 
Now maybe CLR/CZD is a heck of a hand with a binocular.  But Dude, you only have one chance to properly post your own experiences correctly in a believable format, and you have blown that several times.  As far as I can tell, you have seriously overstated yourself and place an inordinately high value on your own personal opinion.


Edited by Klamath - October/08/2009 at 13:56
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 13:46
To qualify my above statement I truly believe that the best line of binoculars made IS a $400 to $600 bin. This would be the Nikon SE line. I can tell you they out resolve, have better color rendition, better depth of field, and are easier to hold than my Swaro EL's, Leica BRF's, Docter Aspherics. They are my hunting/do everything bin and the EL or Doc is the backup! Of course this is just my oppinion but it has been vetted by true optic experts and they are still refrence standards on about everyones list.
Now the place and company I worked for never had Nikon as a line and as far as I know never will. So why would I make a statement about this $400 bin vs the ZR$400 bin if I had anything other than optic excellence at heart?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 13:56
Thanks for the heads up Steve.  Typical troll just as I figured.  Cannot wait to read the BS post that will follow as he tries to dig himself out.  Laugh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 13:58
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

OK lets get to CLRobles here.  
 
Now maybe CLR/CZD is a heck of a hand with a binocular.  But Dude, you only have one chance to properly post your own experiences correctly in a believable format, and you have blown that several times.  As far as I can tell, you have seriously overstated yourself and place an inordinately high value on your own personal opinion.

Once again Steve has misrepresented himself! This is what propagandist doLoco They, because of the fact that they have the ear of the audience, think they can say or anything and others will believe and followExcellent
The exact quote was "if you include all that we have bought while I worked at the Outdoorsmans in Phoenix it would be in the 10's of thousands!"
Just how many bins do you think they sell in a year Steve? I'm sure you know and have been in their books right? So please tell us Steve? I been at trade shows where they sold 100K in a weekend Steve but I'm sure you have some math formula for that too right?

Oh, And Steve.... You still have not answered the two questionsBig Smile What is your relationship with ZR if any and what of the above bins are the ZR's better than.....
Please do answer for the benefit of allYippee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLRobles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 14:03
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Thanks for the heads up Steve.  Typical troll just as I figured.  Cannot wait to read the BS post that will follow as he tries to dig himself out.  Laugh

You guys are funnyBig Smile I do enjoy it though.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahuntnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 15:56
I have owned the Zen Ed's now for about a month.  I started searching for a new pair of bins for an upcoming Elk hunt. The price of what I pay for equipment if I feel it si worth it, is not a problem (as my wife will testify). I do a lot of wildlife viewing off my back deck as it over looks fields and woodlots. I have a friend who owns three pairs of Swaro's. For what we do as hunters I saw no real difference in view. My wife described the view from the Zen's as "crisp" the colors seem to pop more and we both noticed greater difinition. I had the opprotunity to view his and mine side be side. Bottom line, Im not spending $1600.00 for a name and very little optical benifit. If I am going to spend $1200 more i want it to be proportional in view and quality. If I get only 5 years out of them well what the heck, in 5 years the EL's will be replaced by Swaro with newer and better models that some must have. Im not bashing anyone who owns them, If they make you happy, and enjoy your sport more that is great. I came close to pulling the trigger on a pair of high end optics myself. But after comparing them side by side in actual field conditions, I will put the extra money towards another toy i must have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 16:34
Get Your Popcorn Ready
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 16:48
Well pahuntnut, you speak with too much logic for CLR.  Since I've found out he's CZD on another forum that explains alot.  Unlike CLR, I have to actually look through optics in order to comment on them.  If one offers up an evaluation on optics without ever looking through them then they are talking out their azzes.  As I have posted before, I have personally compared my 10x Zen ED2 to my own 10x trinovids, and my neighbor's 10x SLC and EL's.  The EL's are widely considered to be, by many, the finest bino in the world.  My evaluations show me that, in regards to the view only at this time, there's not a nickles worth of difference between that particular  EL and my Zen.  My Zen is more contrasty, brighter, and has slightly higher resolution than my trinovid and my neighbor's SLC.  Now I could care less what someone owns, and I respect a person's opinion when they have actual hands on experience with glass they praise or bash for that matter.  As far as build quality, well, I've beat the ever lovin piss out of mine, on purpose, over the past couple of months in the field, scouting for deer.  No issues so far.  I can assure you that those SE's CL is in love with, and rightfully so, probably wouldn't have passed the "Zen dunking in the water @ the windmill after I rolled them around in the sandhills" test I conducted as the SE's are not waterproof.   The Zen ED2 most certainly is, per this test.    So I guess we'll be enlightened by CL's evaluations on glass he's never seen here at this forum.  I was hoping he'd stay over on the birdforum with his BS.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 19:33
JG,
 
On the other forums severalpeople soon came to the conclusion that C---- (whoever he goes by on each forum) is being paid to slam ZR's. If so, whoever is paying him is getting ripped off, because he doesn't present any real evidence, just goes on and on with lots of sentences ending in !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2009 at 20:59
I'll try to stop reading the propaganda from him from now on.  Thanks for the heads up. 
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