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Proper items needed to mount scopes?

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greywolf View Drop Down
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    Posted: May/11/2009 at 07:40
New to long-distance shooting.  Have always just "eye-balled" when I mounted scopes, but I get the feeling I should be more meticulous and use the proper equipment.

So, what do I need?  Bore-sighter?  Small torque-wrench (not the monster that I have that could be used as a hand-to-hand weapon)?  Some sort of cant/leveler, etc.?  Used to have one of those cheapies from Midway that supposedly was magnetic and went on the scope, but it kept falling off and didn't work well.  Plumb level?

If you wouldn't mind, provide recommended names and maybe even a link or two to where I can get them - thanks!

PS - why is it sometimes when I look through some of my scopes that it seems like I am dead-on with regards to the cross-hairs in regards to the reticle being perfectly level in all directions, but when I look at the turrets in relationship to the bore, some are "off" or canted?  Do some scopes just not match up exactly to their turrets?  Is it my eyes?  Or maybe I am the one who is canted?

Makes you wonder why scope manufacturers don't put a line on top of the scope where your rings would go to show "Hey, dummy - here is the PERFECT alignment point for your scope to get you vertical just right"?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 08:19
Hey greywolf
 
There is usually more than one way to skin a cat but here is the way I skin mine.
 
Get an EXD device from Brownells 
 
 
It will align the centerline of your scope and the centerline of your barrel so that you can take all the cant out of your rifle.  There is some information on what it does on this website
 
 
What it does is show you when the rifle is uncanted but then you have to have a way to make sure the reticle is level at the same time as the rifle is uncanted.  I clamp my rifle in a padded vise on my work bench and aim it out the window at a 4' level sitting on a fence 25 yards out.  Then you can rotate the scope till the reticle is level, all the while making sure the rifle is uncanted with the EXD device. 
 
Another item that is optional is an anti cant device attached to your scope.  I like the one made by ScopLevel
 
 
It allows you to duplicate the uncanted rifle effect while shooting off the bench or in the field.  It also makes it easy to transfer the scope and mount it with the reticle level.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 08:25
Greywolf, I have also wished that scopes and rings have a proper factory alignment marks.
Having said that, one can be very high tech and use all kinds of leveling equipment. The biggest problem remains that it is difficult to get a level on the round shapes of actions and scopes.
One method I use is to level the rifle by using the flat surface of the action and a spirit level. Then carefully mount the scope bases and rings without overtightning stuff and thus moving the rifle. (Unless you have a proper rifle clamp off course.) Next, hang a plum line about 10yds or so in front of the scope and align the vertical reticule with this plum line by rotating the scope. Now separately put masking tape on the scope and the rings where they join. With a pen place  witness marks on the scope tape and the ring tape so that they align.
The scope can now be removed, the base screws etc tightened up. The scope is placed back in the rings, witness marks aligned and tightened up. Should be good to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 08:46
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00999007000P?keyword=feeler+gauage


Having mounted more than a few scopes, and owning almost every mounting tool possible (though I have never used the vertical reticle instrument), I'd say the simplest way to do it is with feeler gauges, no worry about the cant of the rifle or scope when performing the install.  Be advised, this only works if you are mounting the scope on a rail - as the squared bottom of the scope has to interface a squared surface on the rifle.

Also, you might cant when you shoot (I do) and you can purchase a rail-mounted level.  It isn't needed for close-up but can really help on the long shots.

Scope mounting is a pain in the ass, but if you don't do it right, it is infuriating later.  Better to do it right (the first time) than fast.  Be certain you know the torque specs for the base and rings and have a decent torque wrench on hand - and lok tite.  I use a Wheeler adjustable torque wrench (store at 0 in/lbs), it ain't high-dollar but it has never let me down.

There are many ways to mount a scope, levels, leveling bore sighter, feel gauges, plumb lines, more levels: use the method that gets your rifle and scope working for you.  The feeler guage method is almost idiot-proof (almost) and has done great for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greywolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 09:00
Rancid - just how does the feeler gauge work?  I'm not sure I understand the concept and how it relates to scope cant/reticles being off?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 09:45
Feeler gauge method takes advantage of the flat spot at the bottom of the scope saddle and the two flats on the top of the receiver (if its that type of receiver) and the fact the feeler gauge can be adjusted to thickness. Place the scope in the rings semi-tight insert the feeler gauge with all the tangs between the scope and reciever and remove thickness until it fits, the square of the top of the receiver will carry over to the base of the scope etc. canted reticles are a seperate problem and the scope needs to be sent back. easy to determine , just put the scope on square , run up the elevation against a known plum, there it is. some long range shooters like a slight top left cant to compensate for spin drift.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sholling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 09:59
I just use a few basics:
  • A decent rifle vice to hold the rifle level while I get the scope where I want it.
  • A ring lap
  • A pair of small levels to level the scope to the rifle. I don't care for the "Level-Level-Level". Because of their cheap construction they aren't always level to each other. I use a pair of $1 mini levels from Harbor Freight that I checked for level. Still there are a few rifles that for no good reason have no flat surfaces to level from and so can be a challenge. 
  • An inch-pound toque screwdriver. My favorite is the Utica TS35 which you can often find used on fleabay for around $30-60.  These are actual professional grade torque drivers.
  • Good quality bits. Just bear in mind that the good ones are hard enough that they can chip so be prepared to replaces some of the more popular sizes now and then.
  • A boresighter. I personally like the magic Leupold pocket boresighter the best but I double check with a laser. I've found my Leupold to be consistent at putting the 1st shot high and to the left but it gets me on paper quickly and easily.
I also have a scope mounted level installed on my varmint/target rifle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 10:06
As a matter of interest, I marked my scope and mountings using masking tape and a pen to draw corresponding witness marks, before removing everything and sending the rifle for a barrel replacement.
On return of said rifle I re-aligned everything as marked. My first shot was 1 inch low. 4 clicks up and I was dead on. Two bullets was all it took.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2009 at 10:59
Tagged for interest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jetwrnch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 06:23
If you wear glasses as I do the reticle may never look level. Astigmatism I believe? Anyway, I doubt it really matters much so long as the scope is level with the ground when you shoot. A rail or scope mounted permanent level would help on the really long shots. If you cant the rifle naturally when you shoulder it you may not want the reticle square to the receiver because you will always have to adjust before the shot. JMHO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jetwrnch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 06:26
P.S. As for tools I highly recommend something for aligning the rings to prevent torquing the tube.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 06:47
Originally posted by jetwrnch jetwrnch wrote:

P.S. As for tools I highly recommend something for aligning the rings to prevent torquing the tube.
 
Good reminder, jetwrnch.  I also have a set of Wheeler Engineering Alignment Kit in 1" and 30mm
 
 
which are very useful on dovetail rings or windage adjustable rings.  With the rings where they are not useable they will at least tell you if you have a problem and how far the rings are off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greywolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 09:24
Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

I just use a few basics:
  • A decent rifle vice to hold the rifle level while I get the scope where I want it.
  • A ring lap
  • A pair of small levels to level the scope to the rifle. I don't care for the "Level-Level-Level". Because of their cheap construction they aren't always level to each other. I use a pair of $1 mini levels from Harbor Freight that I checked for level. Still there are a few rifles that for no good reason have no flat surfaces to level from and so can be a challenge. 
  • An inch-pound toque screwdriver. My favorite is the Utica TS35 which you can often find used on fleabay for around $30-60.  These are actual professional grade torque drivers.
  • Good quality bits. Just bear in mind that the good ones are hard enough that they can chip so be prepared to replaces some of the more popular sizes now and then.
  • A boresighter. I personally like the magic Leupold pocket boresighter the best but I double check with a laser. I've found my Leupold to be consistent at putting the 1st shot high and to the left but it gets me on paper quickly and easily.
I also have a scope mounted level installed on my varmint/target rifle.
 
So I need an inch-pound vs. an inch-ounce torque screwdriver, correct?
 
What is a good range to look for (min-max adjustment)?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sholling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 09:24
Originally posted by jetwrnch jetwrnch wrote:

Anyway, I doubt it really matters much so long as the scope is level with the ground when you shoot. A rail or scope mounted permanent level would help on the really long shots. If you cant the rifle naturally when you shoulder it you may not want the reticle square to the receiver because you will always have to adjust before the shot. JMHO

Actually at really long shots it does make a difference. When the scope is out of level in relation to the bore axis one of two things becomes an issue. A) Either you shoot with the rifle level but the crosshairs out of level generating an error as you adjust for range with the elevation knob.

Or B) you shoot with the cross hairs level and accept that the windage will be off at every distance except where you're zeroed and that the amount will increase with range. For the hunter this is all academic - minute of Bambi is close enough. But for a precision target shooter shooting at varying distances it can be significant. Let's say you are out of level by 2 degrees and the centerline of the scope is 2" above the centerline of the bore. That shifts the barrel roughly .070" to the side. You can leave that error when you zero the rifle and mentally correct 1/16" at all distances, or you can dial it out while zeroing at 100m except then you'll be off 5/8" at 1000m.

At this point some would say "hey wait a minute at 1000m a 1/2 MOA rifle is going to give you a 5" group anyway. True, but shift that 5" group off to the side by 5/8" and it can hurt scores. Now I'm not a good enough shot that it makes any difference but for some it does make a difference.

 


Edited by sholling - May/12/2009 at 09:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 09:31
Originally posted by jetwrnch jetwrnch wrote:

Anyway, I doubt it really matters much so long as the scope is level with the ground when you shoot. A rail or scope mounted permanent level would help on the really long shots. If you cant the rifle naturally when you shoulder it you may not want the reticle square to the receiver because you will always have to adjust before the shot. JMHO



You completely lost me on that one.

Whether the scope is level to the ground or not is irrelevant, all that matters is the bore axis and the scope axis and gravitational axis.

If your reticle is canted, any shot at any distance other than zero will be off the mark simply because elevation and windage adjustments aren't "pure" on-axis adjustments.  A clockwise cant will throw rounds low and right; a counter-clock cant will throw rounds low and left. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 09:34
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Originally posted by sholling sholling wrote:

I just use a few basics:
  • A decent rifle vice to hold the rifle level while I get the scope where I want it.
  • A ring lap
  • A pair of small levels to level the scope to the rifle. I don't care for the "Level-Level-Level". Because of their cheap construction they aren't always level to each other. I use a pair of $1 mini levels from Harbor Freight that I checked for level. Still there are a few rifles that for no good reason have no flat surfaces to level from and so can be a challenge. 
  • An inch-pound toque screwdriver. My favorite is the Utica TS35 which you can often find used on fleabay for around $30-60.  These are actual professional grade torque drivers.
  • Good quality bits. Just bear in mind that the good ones are hard enough that they can chip so be prepared to replaces some of the more popular sizes now and then.
  • A boresighter. I personally like the magic Leupold pocket boresighter the best but I double check with a laser. I've found my Leupold to be consistent at putting the 1st shot high and to the left but it gets me on paper quickly and easily.
I also have a scope mounted level installed on my varmint/target rifle.
 
So I need an inch-pound vs. an inch-ounce torque screwdriver, correct?
 
What is a good range to look for (min-max adjustment)?
 



Yes, you need inch/pounds, not inch/ounces (since you will quickly be out or range) and NOT foot/pounds.

You will need something that goes as low as about 15 (for the ring screws) and as high as about 65 (for the bolts/screws that hold the ring to the rail.)  And always store your torque wrench at its lowest setting or zero.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greywolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 09:41
Thanks, guys.
 
OK, another equipment question:
 
What sort of rest do you use?  I've seen many different models of Lead Sled rests, as well as some other brands.  I'd like something that allows for precise vertical (elevation) as well as horizontal (windage) movement without having to lift and move the rest for horizontal (most seem like this) - suggestions?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 09:53



I also have one of these but find that using a too well supported rest makes me a sloppy shooter, maybe you will have other experiences.




I prefer a good bipod or tripod up front with a manipulatable rest in the back like a sock filled with sand or the like.


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - May/12/2009 at 09:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sholling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 11:13
Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

So I need an inch-pound vs. an inch-ounce torque screwdriver, correct?
 
What is a good range to look for (min-max adjustment)?
 

Inch-pounds

I've never torqued a mounting screw tighter than 35in-lbs or lighter than 15, so a 0-36in-lb TS35 does it for me, but I do own a TS100 just in case I ever need it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2009 at 12:06
If you run Badger, Seekins, Nightforce, USO, TPS, or IOR rings; you will need 55-65in/lbs to mount the rings to the rail.  True, putting the ring halves together usually requires 15-20 in/lbs, but the rings should be mounted well too!
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