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Why doesnt Zeiss step up to the plate in the USA?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 308WIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 15:19
Also a lot of consumers see "swarfski" & think I gotta get summa that "german" stuff. They don't know why, but their buddy told em it was the best stuff. I agree with JB on the "german" stubborness to change their superior ways. I work against germans in my field & they reduse to do it different. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 16:54
My bother works for a German-Swiss company. They see the world a lot differant than Americans.  They assume that thier way is the best and everybody else should adapt to thier way of doing things.  Rather than the other way around which is closer to the American way of thinking.
 
Rember the store is not there to sell the best.  They are there to sell things that make it money. It is the law of compounded interest.  You only make money on the things that move. If you have a floor plan (business inventory loan) you loose money on things that don't move.  You make money on things that turn over faster than those who have larger margins.  Basic formula is Investment plus Mark up times rate of Turn over.  If it does not turn over you do not make money.   I+M^T=  Profit Turn over is an exponet. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:12

One thing I forgot to point out in my previous post about marketing is that Opticstalk.com is "marketing." Most websites are.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:24
Point taken.

For clarification, I wasn't trying to start a fight.

I see a profound difference between this:
http://www.countersniperoptics.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=57&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=5017700.6136


And this:
http://www.zeiss.com/C1256BCF0020BE5F/Contents-Frame/E34E4125AA548D6685256BCF0061320D

Marketing is, in my opinion, a way of biasing or creating data; and there is as much misrepresentation in marketing  - probably more - as their is accurate representation.


Personally, I don't count it as a bad thing that Zeiss doesn't market more.  I would agree it is unfortunate that the group most susceptible to marketing campaigns is as poorly informed as they are (many still "know" that every leupold is made in the USA and says so on the box)but, with the internet what it is today, it is a lack of effrot to know that leads people to buy a CounterSniper scope and not something of quality.  That, and the cool bright wite lettering on the ocular bell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:28
I actually work for one of the largest German companies in the world and have for the past 20+ years. Yes, they do think differently. In Europe, their the leader in many fields so what they offer is basically what you get, period. Almost like strong arming. Here in the states, we have so many choices that their forced to make modifications/adjustments (which hits their bottom line) to remain competitive. Because of this they consider Americans as spoiled. They don't do a whole lot of advertising because their the “main player” back home and probably feel they don’t have to. The products produced are excellent  but costly. The bottom line is the money, then the customer.

Maybe that's the attitude of Zeiss if one feels that they don't advertise their product enough here in the USA; not sure why someone would cry “foul” if they don’t. As for Swaro, I feel their smart and they deliver too. If the company I work for had the same strategy plan I feel we would not have lost so much ground as of late here in the states.



Edited by mike650 - March/25/2009 at 22:34
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:38
Originally posted by 308WIN 308WIN wrote:

Sure you saw an ad but I see ads for swaro in every magazine & every tv. Show. I was hunting with a guy who wants a swaro" because they r the best". Best @ what I asked? Sure they r great but he could get a victory for 400 cheaper & still wanted a swaro because of the power of advertising.




Page 48 of Sporting Classics - March/April 2009 is just one example of a Zeiss Diavari rifle scope advertisement.

Like I said before check the "other major outdoors store" that starts with a C. They carry the Zeiss Victory scope line. From what I've experienced, B.P. caters more toward fishing but does have a large line of hunting products.

It appears that Zeiss is stepping up to the plate but maybe not the way you'd like to see 'em vs. Swaro.




Edited by mike650 - March/24/2009 at 17:53
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 17:59
Sure, Zeiss advertises. As I noted in my first post, since about the time the Conquest was introduced their attitude has been somewhat different than it was before. But they never have gotten marketing in the U.S. in the same way Swarovski has, the reason Swarovski has been such a big success here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Obi Wan Kenobi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 18:07
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

For a long time Zeiss was fairly clueless about marketing anything except binoculars in the U.S., and they weren't even great at that. Their "marketing" campaign mostly consisted of having a few gun writers over the Germany every  few years, to tour the factories and tell them how stupid Americans were for not buying Zeiss scopes.
 
While this was going on Zeiss scopes weren't truly waterproof, mostly had short eye relief, and weren't all that tough. Those features weren't really needed in Germany, so they assumed they weren't needed in America either.
 
In the meantime Swarovski was trying hard to understand the American market, and making some scopes according to what Americans wanted. They also ran some smart ad campaigns, which pretty much convinced the average American hunter that Swarovski made the best scopes in the world.
 
Eventually Zeiss realized what was happening, and brought out the Conquests specifically for the American market. But they never have advertised or promoted like Swarovski has, and hence may never catch up.
 
John I also believe it has to do with price. You're dead on about Zeiss' marketing. Their marketing flat out sucks or it has sucked.
 
To be totally honest & fair. Zeiss makes a better scope than Swarovski when it comes to clearity & light transmission head to head. But Swarovski clearly has an overall better selection for the American hunter. But if Zeiss wanted to they could produce a new line of scope each year & out do Swarovski I think they are concerned about price in the market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 18:27
I suspect (but don't know for certain) that tghe big reason Zeiss has never been as concerned about the American scope market is that they do so well in Europe, and probably outsell Swarovski there. So they weren't as concerned about the American market, which may or may not have been a good long-range strategy. We are still the biggest shooting market in the world, but not the biggest "high-end" market.
 
Having dealt with German optics and firearms manufacturers for some time, I did a little basic research. My home state of Montana has roughly the same area as Germany, but with roughly 1/100th the population. Montana has the highest percentage of hunters in the U.S. About 50% of adult men hunt, for instance. But the average income is around $26,000 a year.
 
In Germany only about 1/2 of 1% of people hunt, but because of the much higher population the number of hunters is about the same as in Montana. But the average income of hunters is MUCH higher. German hunters expect to pay a lot for firearms, scopes and hunting. It's a very different market.
 
Montana is an extreme example among U.S. states , but applying the same marketing strategy to German and U.S. hunters just doesn't work out very well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 20:05
As always, thanks John!!  Thunbs Up
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 20:29
Very good analysis there, John.  Thank you very much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 308WIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 20:30
thanks John

I do believe zeiss dominates germany, norway, finland, sweden, england, etc... i nsales that is... maybe they dont care about america but everytime a Z6 sells, it couldve been a victory, same prices...

Lastly, Mike650, zeiss may have have an ad here or there but by and large swaro dominates marketing compared to zeiss. when have you seen a zeiss used on a hunting show, forget about actually sponsoring one like swaro does quite a bit! Zeiss doesnt seem interested in sending products out to people on shows to use
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 20:55
Originally posted by 308WIN 308WIN wrote:

thanks John

I do believe zeiss dominates germany, norway, finland, sweden, england, etc... i nsales that is... maybe they dont care about america but everytime a Z6 sells, it couldve been a victory, same prices...

Lastly, Mike650, zeiss may have have an ad here or there but by and large swaro dominates marketing compared to zeiss. when have you seen a zeiss used on a hunting show, forget about actually sponsoring one like swaro does quite a bit! Zeiss doesnt seem interested in sending products out to people on shows to use


Sounds like you dislike Swaro. Shocked

Agreed, I think it's been stated a few times now that Swaro has a better marketing plan than Zeiss here in the states. It appears maybe Zeiss follows the traditional German marketing approach, much like the German company I work for.

As for Zeiss sponsorship on a hunting show, I bet if you do a little digging you'll probably find some out there too.





Edited by mike650 - March/24/2009 at 20:59
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 308WIN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 21:09
i dislike swaro so much i own the SLC binos which i just bought 2 years ago.
I actually think Z6's are excellent and would own one if i liked the reticle selection. I didnt want a RFP reticle and they are too thin and i cant afford a lighted reticle.

DO you work in the medical video field?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/24/2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by 308WIN 308WIN wrote:

i dislike swaro so much i own the SLC binos which i just bought 2 years ago.
I actually think Z6's are excellent and would own one if i liked the reticle selection. I didnt want a RFP reticle and they are too thin and i cant afford a lighted reticle.

DO you work in the medical video field?




That's one excellent advantage of Zeiss is the many reticle choices.


IT, video/IP is a small part of it but will increase in time.





Edited by mike650 - March/24/2009 at 21:15
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BSA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2009 at 15:31
Schmidt & Bender does a better job of marketing here also......I think the glass is better on Zeiss Victory scopes......though perhaps not as rugged a scope as S&B.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 08:41
Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

I have never seen the 4200 at a Bass pro shop either. Only 3200 and under.
 
That's strange, the Bass Pro in Concord, NC has had several.
I think the first 4200 I ever saw was at Bass Pro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 09:25
The Bass Pro in Broken Arrow does not and never has carried the 4200, The big one in Rancho Cucamunga Ca. did not have any either. I was surprised at how few scopes they had at all. Most all there displays were only 50% stocked. They did carry the Meopta binoculars. They are not marketed in my area, even in the larger camera stores.  Squeezer and Rifle Looney said that this was the largest selection of hunting equipment in the area. It can be good not to be in Califunky. Cool 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seadog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2009 at 20:40
Hello all, just joined the forum today. I purchased a Zeiss 6-24x72 victory diavari about a year ago.I shoot a steyr hs 50 on a weekly basis. I found the scope at my local store, took it outside and looked through it.That is all it took. At the world championship shoot in Raton NM, mirage was a lot less than,say NF. The 63 moa of elevation in the scope was not enough so i mounted it on a set of Ivey adjustable 150 moa rings which gives me about 213 moa. The scope has preformed flawlessly. I often times mount it on my AR10-t and shoot sub moa groups.The hensoldt Zeiss is different,the threads on the objective are not the same, but both were purpose built for heavy sniping.Just my two cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2009 at 03:09
Welcome to Optics Talk, seadog.
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