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Trouble in scope paradise

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John Barsness View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 18:49
Don't rule the scope out just because it's a Zeiss. From the description it sounds like a Conquest, and I had a 6.5-20x Conquest that acted just like that on a very accurate .240 Weatherby. In fact over the years I have had 3 defective Zeiss scopes.
 
You won't get 2" groups with .243 ammo in a .308, or anything near that. In fact I would be surprised if the bullets made it halfway to the target.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/06/2009 at 20:51
Hornady and Speer have both made .308 100 grain bullets. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shooter4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 06:12

Im shooting 180 grain.Wink

Im not very used to this rifle, its new to me, Id say ca70 fires all in all. Im very comfortable with my 22cal but I admit I loose a bit of concentration and relaxation with the 308 blast. Its very possible its my fault. Some say the 2inch groups are good enough for hunting but I personally want to do much better and be consistent.
 
Im having an experienced friend shoot my rifle soon - he might be able to see if its the equipment or me. He right away commented on me using the highest magnification, told me to use less. He also commented on the fact that I shoot left handed with a right handed stock.  I dont have a cheek pad and he said It did not help. I there anywhere I can buy a cheek pad on my stock !! Stare
 
My initial concern was that the space from scope to barrell was too tight. He told me he had not seen such a small spacing, its a little under 1mm. You can slip 1-2 dollar bills between. He thought it was OK, and its a heavy barrell gun and shoult dont move. But he must find out soon. Big Smile
 
I have a bit of experience with Zeiss Conquests from friends and they are all good. My concern is if mine is a faulty one (Conquest 6.5-20x55mm). If so are there any obivous signs to look for
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shooter4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 06:13
I meant Conquest 6.5-20x50mm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 06:19
You may want to try some match ammo of some kind or better yet, start hand loading if your seeking sub MOA accuracy.
The Sako is surely capable of it, provided you feed it the ammo it likes and do your part.
 
As an aside, I had a Sako .300 WM that was very accurate, but somewhat fickle about the ammo it liked.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heavishot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 07:43
+1 on changing ammo.  If it's shooting 2" groups it could just be that the gun doesn't like that particular ammo.  My .270 won't shoot even 2" groups with Winchester XP3 150 grain but shoots almost 1/2" groups with 130 grain XP3 and shoots sub 1" with Hornady 130 grain Interbond.
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John Barsness View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 08:23
From your initial post it sounds like you shot this rifle before and it grouped well with another scope. and possibly other ammo. Is this true? If so, then I would try the same ammo you shot then, and see what happens.
 
If you haven't shot the rifle before, then you are dealing with two unknowns: the rifle and the scope. I try not to shoot a new rifle with a new scope, if possible, just because then there are so many possbilities for any problems.
 
Again, just because the scope is a Zeiss don't automatically discount the possibility of the scope being the problem. I have seen ALL sorts of scopes fail over the years--and if a scope is bad, odds are very high that it will either be bad out of the box or fail within the first box or two of ammo. 
 
The question is isolating the problem here, and there are 5 possibilities: you, the rifle, the ammo, the scope mounts, and the scope. Do not discount any of them or you may never find which IS the problem.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brock_Brett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 10:04
+1 on what John has said here. With a new rifle, I mount 1 of 3 scopes have used and never second guessed there integrity. With the 5 possibility's you have, you have to eliminate 4 of them and start over.

Like John, I assumed you have shot this rifle before. If so and it shot well, put the old scope back on, if it shoots well, send the Zeiss back.

Rob
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John Barsness View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 10:51
I'll just add that two of my close friends are a couple of the best (and best-known) custom riflesmiths in the business. Both of them are known for the top-notch accuracy of their rifles, and so they must test-shoot each rifle before it goes out the door. Both have a collection of test scopes that they trust.
 
Both have the constant problem of shipping a rifle that will shoot X size group, then having the customer call up and say the rifle isn't shooting nearly that good. Sometimes the problem is with the customer, but far more often the problem is the scope. When either of my friends mentions this possibility, the custom says, "The scope can't be the problem. It's a Zeiss." (Or Swarovski, or Leupold, or Schmidt & Bender, or whatever.) Very often it's a brand-new scope.
 
At this point my friends can (and have) done several things. If the guy has another rifles that shoots well, they might suggest taking that rifle's scope off and putting it on the new rifle. They might send one of their test scopes to the guy to try. If the customer lives close enough, they might suggest bringing the rifle over during the next test day. Sometimes the problem turns out to be the customer, but well over 90% of the time the problem is the scope.
 
Once one of these guys ordered a new Nightforce to use when testing customer's rifles. The first time at the range it started 2-grouping at 300 yards. He sent it back to Nightforce and they fixed it promptly, but yes, scopes are made by humans, and even the best of them can be defective. They are also the weakest link in the mechanical side of putting together an accurate rifle--the reason scopes are usually the FIRST thing I suspect when problems occur, after the really simple stuff like making sure all the screws are tight, no matter who made the scope.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 10:56
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

 
Again, just because the scope is a Zeiss don't automatically discount the possibility of the scope being the problem. 
 
 
I agree with Mr. Barsness here, but find it curious that the OP shot 40-50 rounds through the rifle and Zeiss, but it got no worse than a 2" spread on groups. Or so indicated.
 
My Conquest went TU on me and I went from shooting MOA groups to progressively worse groups after a few shots. More like 5" groups @ 100 yards within 10 rounds, on a proven rifle and match type ammo.
 
A 2" spread @ 100 yard on a 5 shot?? group can certainly be attributed to a shaky shooter (no offense) and a round that this particular rifle isn't fond of.
Not even sure if this is a 3 or 5 shot group either.  
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 10:59
as much as i hate to throw people under the bus im still going with shooter error. i would have a friend with more experience shoot the rifle to verify the results. if your friend doesnt get any better results then i would start to explore other avenues. till then i wouldnt spend any more money messing with anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 11:05
  I can't understand that if someone is so trusting in a custom builder's knowledge and expertise to let him build them a rifle,and at a considerable cost,why they wouldn't also let him recommend a scope if he was so inclined to do so. I would.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 11:05
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i would have a friend with more experience shoot the rifle to verify the results. if your friend doesnt get any better results then i would start to explore other avenues. till then i wouldnt spend any more money messing with anything.
 
You can send that ornery 'ol Sako to me to verify, friend.  Devil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 11:07
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i would have a friend with more experience shoot the rifle to verify the results. if your friend doesnt get any better results then i would start to explore other avenues. till then i wouldnt spend any more money messing with anything.
 
You can send that ornery 'ol Sako to me to verify, friend.  Devil
Wink


no offense here john, but i would send it to cheaptrick long before i sent it to montana. you have bad luck with scopes and i wouldnt take any chances.Laugh
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 11:08
Or me.............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rifle looney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 13:30
Hey guy's just a thought, what would you say to a rifle exchange just to test out others that you don't own but have thought of owning kind of a trial exchange the problem would be shipping unless you went through a dealer at least in my state ......well this really wouldn't work I guess. DAMN IT!  but I would do this because I have faith that you guys would care for  like they were your own!    Thinking
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 13:34
  But if I send pyro my .270 Win Fwt he might not send it back rl!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 13:35
....probably just re-bore it on you 300.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 13:39

      Furious

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/07/2009 at 13:52
.280 rem the real choice in the 30-06 family!!
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
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