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How do you do optical comparisons?

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John Barsness View Drop Down
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    Posted: February/22/2009 at 09:04
I often read here about how X scope has a lot better glass than Y scope. I am curious about how people go about making these comparisons, partly because I just ran some optical tests on several scopes and got different results than those often seen here. I'd appreciate hearing how other people do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 09:36
I usually just sit on the hill behind my house and look out a couple of hundred yards. I like doing this in low light to judge how "bright" a scope is. The heavy cover along the valley allows me to look at branches and other things that could cause me to miss a shot or wound an animal, too.
I bench mark all of my hunting scopes against a pair of Zeiss 7x42 binoculars I hunt with. I discovered some time back that for some of my hunting, I needed to have a scope that would let me see in low light, at long range with heavy background cover. Not too many scopes I have can keep up with the binoculars.
I have also used various resolution charts. I based a spotting scope purchase on a comparison using the USAF 1951 chart.
Other than that, I just like looking through the scopes under my particular hunting scenarios. If I can see the game, the reticle, through cover and in low light I'm pretty content.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucytuma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 09:50
I also like to check resolution by reading signs at varing distances, I've found that an old fashion eye chart works pretty well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 10:28
   I don't believe it's so much in how a test is done as long as it covers from one extreme to the other and as many variables as possible. But I honestly believe that not enough people take into consideration how the differences in each persons vision can affect what one person sees through a scope as compared to another and so up come differing opinions,to put it mildly,on that scope or the complete line of that brand scope's quality. John,I believe you kinda touched on this a bit in an article you wrote on scope magnification. Maybe if more emphasis was placed on this so that more people realized it,some of the optics forums wouldn't be so "LIVELY". Ya think so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 10:45
Yeah, different eyes have something to do with it.
 
I also notice that a lot of people look through different scopes in the middle of the day and make assumptions about how they will work in low light. This doesn't always follow. Quite often a scope with a wider field of view and/or shorter eye relief will appear brighter during daytime, primarily because a wider eyepiece, closer to the eye, allows less interference from light coming into our eye from the side. This isn't an optical illusion, just the way optics work. But things can look very different in dim light, when there isn't so much interference from "stray" light.
 
Another thing I have often heard of is comparing various scopes of different magnifications side by side. This is fairly useless as an indcation of optical quality.
 
I do a lot of just plain looking through various scopes, comparng them side by side in what are essentially hunting situations. But I also run some reasonably scientific tests in dim light to compare how the glass in different scopes compares, everything else being equal. These tests are often eye-opening, if you'll forgive the pun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 10:48
 Pun forgiven!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horsemany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 10:54
If I'm at the store I take them outside and look over about a 120yd long parking lot to some road signs and window signs.  Not great but it does show differences in resolution and brightness.
 
At the range I use the 300yd IBS targets with several different sizes of print in the corners.  I try to focus and read the various prints from the 100yd benchs with 2 rifles on the same bench set up side by side in rests.  This way I can go quickly from one to the other.  I also have whoever I'm shooting with that day play around with them focusing them and get his opinion too.  It's not very scientific but it's real world testing that tells me what I want to know. 
 
I consider all of this optical testing important but not as important as what the box test tells me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 11:29
In comparing scopes with different power and objective size ratios. I only look at those that can adequately give the same exit pupil, and set them and only compare them at that setting. I like to check in moonlit scenarios, or backlit scenarios. I check for contrast, and resolution in both daylight and lowlight situations. I also look for flare and stray light management.
 
It is very interesting that there is such a wide difference between the eyes of different people. For example some people have more rods than cones. And some more cones than rods. Combine this with the vast differences in eyesight as far as the individual ability of each eye to focus, and it becomes even more astounding.
 
I have every belief that certain people will always find particular coatings to be superior to what others may themselves prefer. I also believe that this has a lot to do with why your favorite color is what it is. 
 
It is also interesting that those with exceptionally sharp vision (better than 20/20) have more appreciation for the better glass than those that are less accute in that area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horsemany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 11:33
I didn't realize those with better than 20/20 vision had more appreciation for better optics.  I would have thought the opposite actually.  That is interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 11:55

Some people also have color biases in their eyesight, and not just color-blindness. I have been told more than once in my interviews with various people in the optics industry that women have a tendency toward blue color bias, while men tend more toward the red end o the spectrum. (I know that my wife and I have different definitions of the colors "aqua" and "turquoise"!)

This in turn would affect how some people see through different scopes, especially at various times of the day.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 11:57
I too would have thought the same as you. I have a friend with 20/25 vision uncorrected and he can see (without his glasses) no difference between the Bushnell Banner, and the 4200 Elites, Monarchs, and Leupold VX III. When he uses his glasses however. He always takes the 4200, and Monarchs over the others. He did this test, because he was curious. I have exceptional vision for my age. It is 20/17 in the right eye, and 20/18 in the left, at 44 years of age. I can see liitle difference at all between the 4200 and Monarch. The VX III comes in close behind them, then the Banner reasonably close behind the VX III. Cosequently He has an older (pre meade) Simmons AETEC, which he takes just ahead of the Banner (Japanese made)
I have to take his word for it because I can't do the test with the vision that I have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 12:11
That's very true John. I have noticed the same thing as well.
I am curious. I happen to have very light sensitive eyes. How many others have the same affliction/blessing. How does that affect what we see as far as scope superiority, in low/bright light?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horsemany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 12:20
John that's interesting too.  Every once in a while my wife will describe something's color and it's not the same color I'd call it.  Hmm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RONK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 12:29
 You guys are bringing up some very interesting thoughts about individual perceptions of various optics.
 I've mentioned on this forum before, an uncle of mine who is badly color-blind. (I'm not sure which spectrums).
In his service during the Korean war, he was often chosen to lead night patrols because of his extraordinary night vision. What he lacked in color, he was blessed with in darkness.
 Who knows: that ability may have saved his life and those of many others. (It also cost many Communists dearly.)
 It certainly is interesting how different people see things differently,(in so many ways.)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 12:38
The Camera rags have been doing optical tests for as long as there have been cameras.  They have a pretty good  way of  doing things.  Color charts, Grey scale charts, and resultion charts.  It shocks me to see that you don't see any of this in a scope test.  Well maybe not after the results don't line up with the ad dollars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horsemany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 12:58
That's an interesting point Silver.  There is no shortage of misinformation and just plain B.S. in the shooting/hunting world.  Some of the most proposterous claims I've ever heard have been in gunshops and duckblinds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 13:05
Here's an interesting link. It even speaks as to the vast differences (in the ratio of cones) between individuals with normal color vision.
 
This perhaps help to explain quite a bit.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 13:07
Another good question! But no doubt is has an effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 13:19
There is a write up in the American Rifleman about every 15 years that gives a good  description of how to test things.  Written protocals in testing are a help.  The main thing is the use of refferance standards.  You can get those from most of the big camera supply houses.
 
It is interesting to see the responce I get when once in a while I hear the classic line "I can't see any differance" to ask when was you last eye exam, how long have you smoked and does your family have a history of cataracts.  Yes individual eye health plays a roll in what you see. Things like smoking can effect how you see at night. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2009 at 14:54
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

I often read here about how X scope has a lot better glass than Y scope. I am curious about how people go about making these comparisons, partly because I just ran some optical tests on several scopes and got different results than those often seen here. I'd appreciate hearing how other people do it.
 
Thank you Mr. Barsness for being here and open to these various topics. This is one that brought me here to the OT. I have been a budget hunter For longer than I care to say making do with what I could find for under 300.00. And looking to friends who seemed to know from experience what was considered reliable. My first experience with a good low light scope was the old Simmons Presidential. I still believe that was a scope ahead of it's time and wish I still had it. But it made a real difference in quality optics when it counted. Its kinda funny to hear folk fuss about scope quality in a situation where their particular application is full daylight and never when light is a issue. Ofcourse now I can see that, if the need is to see shot placement when a spotting scope isn't available. But glass quality is in my opinion most easily observed in conditions where light transmission is a factor. In fact I am in the testing phase, attempting to decide what scope I want for a rifle I am building. I am comparing a kahles 3x10x50 MZ, IOR tactical, a Zeiss D 3x12x56 and a SN-3 US Optics of similar configuration. There is a fair spread in cost on these, but which one will do what I want the best? I have inquired about the glass used in all and though I know three use glass from Schott I have recently be told that the coating used will still make a noticable difference.
I want the scope I chose to have top quality target turrets so that will also impact my choice.  I am testing the zero set reliability on all and expect them all to be close. But the light transmission is the subject here.
So when I take them out for the late evening comparison that may be the clincher. Edge to edge clearity is important as is being able to easily maintain good clear focus. But I would trade off some margin there if a scope gives me everything posible in target acquisition and identification. People usually assume or joke that we want to take game after legal time. Not true, atleast not here. In my area the best trophies are mostly nocturnal and unless you get lucky and catch one dumbfounded during the rut. You will probably only see the rascal in trail cam pics. But I have been successful scanning the depths of a wood line with quality binos and then trying to get what I have on him before time is up. Now that I have determined to spend some real money on today's quality optics I have had to learn for myself what that means. Thanks to people like yourself and many here on the OT I beleive I will be carrying the best there is for the money.
 
BUT, all it takes is for someone I have trusted to have had a bad experience or find out that I was misinformed about one of my potential choices and I will be back to square one.
In fact your posting this thread causes concern because "Just how eliable is the information out there?"
Your statement, "I just ran some optical tests on several scopes and got different results than those often seen here". Has me in serious pause.
 
I know I am looking at some of the best avaliable with premium glass, but what about coatings? What about lens size and measured light transmission? What about the various test you and others run and your varying results? If you could establish a testing standard that most everyone could or would use that outlines what is being evaulated. Then we could clear away so much confusion. The manufactors won't like it, but they will adapt because their sucess depends on it and us.
 
Of these what has been your experience and what can you tell me about lens coating?
All will be 10 to 12 power, 50mm obj or better and 30mm tubes.
 
kahles 3x10x50 MZ, IOR tactical, a Zeiss D 3x12x56 and a SN-3 US Optics of similar configuration.
I hope to complete my comparisions by mid March and make my purchase. I also plan to share my experience here in hopes of critiquing my methods.
 
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