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BillD1
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/30/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Hey Imagunsmith I going to have to disagree with you on this one.
You mentioned that you have used Tasco and Swarovski scopes. I
will assume that you have owned both but I could be wrong. But if
I'm right than that Swarovski scope must have been mounted on a 2,000
or maybe a 3,000 dollar gun because you wouldn't dare have that scope
on a 500 or 600 dollar gun? So I'm assuming that if it was a
2,000 or 3,000 dollar gun than you borrowed it from Gozarian because he
has good taste. Since you have used them all, It is difficult for
me to believe that anybody would not be able to tell the difference
between a Tasco vs a Swarovski in the field. Maybe the
average person would not notice much of a difference between the scopes
when shooting targets at 100 yard range on a bright sunny day at high
noon, or staring down tubes in a well lite store. But, can you
honestly tell me that if you saw the buck of a lifetime standing 300
yards away in a low light situation caused by sunrise, sunset, bad
weather, or a dense wooded area that you would prefer your trusty ole
Tasco over a Swarovski? Come on, get real, because if you
actually do believe that then you might want to consider outsourceing
those bedding jobs and stay away from the epoxy. But, you did
make a bold statement in another post that can see gnats flying around
a deer at 300 yards when your scope is selected at 9 power, and also, 9
power is too much at 300 yards when shooting deer. If what you
are saying is true, than you have the eyes of either Superman or Mr.
Magoo.
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Bill D
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hardcase
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/22/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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300 wby ate most of 'em.
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Imagunsmith
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/18/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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BillD1, I suggest you try and read posts fully and try to understand them before you embarass yourself like this. By the way hows your Marlin 336 doing?
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Gotta problem rifle? I can probably help.
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Chris Farris
TEAM SWFA - Admin swfa.com Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 8024 |
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When you say you import a scope right now from China, did you mean that you imported one to hunt and shoot with for your self or did you imported a bunch to sell to others? |
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Boomholzer
Optics Apprentice Joined: June/20/2004 Status: Offline Points: 224 |
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Imagunsmith
You build 1/4MOA hunting rifles?? That is amazing. How do you accomplish that? Knowing now that you build 1/4MOA hunting rifles, I find it odd you balked at the idea of using a torque wrench to mount a scope base. Edited by Boomholzer |
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Imagunsmith
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/18/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Boomholzer, look at the post correction, I wish I could build a 1/4 MOA gun, but then that would be impossible in aany caliber beyond a .24.
Chris, I have imported several from China for testing purposes only, right now. |
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Gotta problem rifle? I can probably help.
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ranburr
Optics Master Joined: May/16/2004 Status: Offline Points: 1082 |
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I prefer a better quality scope primarily due to performance and dependability. I have personally experienced and witnessed a number of lower-end scopes that crapped out at the wrong time. I have yet to see a Chinese made scope that I would mount on my own guns.
ranburr |
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Imagunsmith
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/18/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Yea, Not crazy about the Chinese myself, but I remember when everyone wanted stay away from Jap made products, it's not like that anymore. Technology changes everyday.
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Gotta problem rifle? I can probably help.
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gozarian
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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Hey Imagunsmith, liar (correct spelling, not lier) is not what I
am. I merely caught you spreading your B.S. and nailed you on
it! You aren't even enough of a MAN to to admitt it! You
need to get your ducks in a row before you start shooting your mouth
off. I live in Southeast Alaska where equipment can take a
beating from the terrain and weather extremes, so JUNK scopes
don't cut it here unless you want to sit in camp for the rest of the
week. Oh yeah, I do have a couple of guns that do shoot 1/4
minute of angle if I do my part on the bench! I also HEAD SHOOT
my deer (at reasonable ranges unless a trophy) when possible because I
have the guns and SCOPES that can do it!
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pippin
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/16/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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Whether you agree or disagree with him Imagegunsmith does raise an interesting question. Clearly at some point in time the law of diminishing returns kicks in. All things being equal a more expensive car or a more expensive scope will offer better performance or do things that the cheaper version will not. Ultimately each of us must decide for themselves how much scope they are willing to pay for. That decision will presumably be based on a number of considerations. How wealthy we are. What use we will put the product to. Our own philosophy, etc. For examply, if like one of the posters you live in Alaska and hunt frequently the degree of ruggedness you need from a scope may well be different that if you are someone who shoots at a range four times a year.
Personally, if its a hobby or an activity I really enjoy I tend to buy high quality products, try to take care of them and keep them for a long time. For example, I mountain bike a lot. Been doing it for about 15 years and have only owned two bikes. Have owned my current bike for about ten years and do not plan on replacing it for the foreseeable future. It was expensive, but it fits me perfectly, is absolutely reliable and is sheer joy to ride. I've taken it on a couple of trips out to Utah and Colorado where the trip itself cost me over $1,000. Think about how pissed I'd have been if my bike started to malfunction the first day. I don't hunt, but I can imagine some guy whose saved up all year for a trip. On the last day, at dusk he spots the buck of his dreams 300 yards out. I'm willing to bet he's going to be pretty bummed out if he decided to save a couple of dollars on a bargain scope and is having trouble lining up the shot.
I can only ride one bike at a time, shoot one gun at a time and use one scope at a time. Frankly, I'd rather have one good quality scope and swap it between two or three rifles than three cheap scopes. I bought used. Imagegunsmith, as someone who does custom work to hunting rifles I would think you would appreciate this. I mean if can buy a stock Remington hunting rifle that's nearly as good as a custom rifle, why would I customize it? Because for some people who are serious about their hunting, having a rifle that's customized to their exact preferences is worth the money. |
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BillD1
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/30/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Hello Imagunsmith, sorry I did not post earlier but I had a busy
weekend. First of all, If I offened you with my sense of humor,
than I apologize. But when I read your post the first time, I
thought that you couldn't be serious and later I realized that indeed
you are serious. For when you wrote that Tasco, Swift, Simmons,
Bushnell, Redfield, Leupold, Baush & Lomb, Weavers (both types),
and Swarovski for the purpose of hunting purposes you wouldn't turn a
hand over the differences in any of them, my interpretation of that
statement was WOW what a bold statement to make on a riflescope forum
and correct me if I am wrong but when you wrote "hunting purposes" are
you meaning all hunting situations a person may encounter. Also when
you say "you wouldn't turn a hand over the difference in any of them"
are you implying that performance in the field between these
manufactures do not differ much or very little to justify the cost
difference? And, you said that you would not take a rifle into
the field that wasn't capable of producing 1 MOA groups. Not to
be rude but, " Why Gunsmith Why!", why would you go through all that
intensive labor and create a tack driver from a scatter gun and topped
it with subpar optics? To me that's like a baseball player
hitting a grand slam and stopping on third base. Why would you
strive for prefection of the rifle and then mount a scope that probably
will not hold zero? If this is what you believe, then I can't
agree with you, but I can respect your opinion.
P.S. Don't own a Marlin 336, but I sure wish I did, a quick handling 30-30 would be just the ticket for some nighttime hog hunting down here in South Texas. The weather is perfect for hunting hags and making sausage. Hopefully there are no hard feelings between us. |
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Bill D
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gozarian
Optics Apprentice Joined: April/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 158 |
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Hey guys, I don't mean to come off rude sounding here, just trying to
be honest. I used to shoot "less expensive scopes" and used to
fare okay. I have had some problems though over the years most of
which probably came from me. Overall, I have had good scopes,
like a Burris Black Diamond, better able to withstand big recoil, big
hits coming down rock slides and overall abuse better than cheap
scopes. I don't intentionally go out there to damage my equipment
but when I go out there, I GO OUT THERE! Sometimes I pack a spare
scope (in Warne or Talley rings) so I can do a fast exchange.
Wouldn't you know it however, whenever I do that is when I don't have
problems!
I just want you guys to be aware of the pitfalls of hunting. If you're a varmint shooter or do a lot of hunting from a stand, you're probably okay with the less expensive scope..........until the light starts fading. The trick here is finding a "diamond in the rough". I had my hunting buddies look through two scopes once. One was a Leupold LPS 3-14x50 and the other was a Tasco Titan in a 3-12x52. I wrapped each scope in paper and set each one on 9 power to keep each scopes identity hidden. We looked through both scopes from dark to dim to bright sun; guess what happened.............the Tasco Titan won out and they (all Leupold men) weren't very happy about how the Titan performed against the BIG BAD LEUPOLD! Now then, there probably aren't many of those "diamonds in the rough" out there that can step up like the Titan when compared to the upper class scopes. I think the Titans, 30 mm tubes anyway, are sledhehammer tough, probably right up there with the Burris Black Diamonds. That being said, the Titan loses to the Swarovski A line 4-12x50 and the Burris Black Diamond 6-24x50.............but not by a whole lot in the brightness side of things. The big difference comes into play at dusk.....when the game comes out. I get about 15 minutes more shooting time from my A line Swarovski than I do my Bushnell 4200's or the Tasco Titan. I would suspect the same performance from Zeiss and Schmidt&Bender as the Swarovski. I still experiment with less expensive scopes and have found that for the most part, you should spend a little more than you can afford for your optics (drink cheaper beer and pocket the rest for that new scope)! You know you can do it, it just takes some reservation and a little extra stashing and saving from the little woman! |
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Imagunsmith
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/18/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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No BillD1, no offense taken. These forums are as much for butting heads as they are for educational. MOA or sub MOA rigs consist more than just the rifle or the optics atop of it. It consists of the rifle, the mounting system, the use of a logical optic choice, the ammo, (by the way I don't shoot factory fodder, lets see what kind of redicule this brings up) and last and certainly not least the shooters ability. Now for the ? you ask "Why Gunsmith Why". I strive to get the best accuracy possible, from not only my rigs but from a customer that is unsure of his/her ability as a shooter. This day and time, as you all know is not a popular time for pro gunners, be us hunters, collectors, or plinkers. The generation of born sportsman and hunters is fading fast. Unlike a lot of us were, todays generation of kids, are not raised in the hunting environment. They are tought for the most part, the evil/fear of guns, gunownership, and the cruelty of hunting. This is being drilled into them through their parents, schools, peers, TV networks, as well todays liberals. Anyway enough of this rambling. My reason is simple this. I have tons of my sons school buddies come to our house and quickly become curious about guns. They want to learn and understand thier curiousities. I try to encourage them to find out for themselves the truth behind firearms and shooting first hand. And I try to do this by connecting with them on a level the can understand. I start with computers, in this day every kid above the age of 4 knows about computers, computer games, and the such. "That computer will sit right there and do anything you want it to, it will let you type anything you want, visit anyplace you want, see anything you want., but YOU have to make it perform the tasks", you are in complete control. Same way with guns, they do what they're made to do. If the kid wants I'll let them shoot. This fuels the fire. Then the same kid runs home after a day of shooting, and what happens next? Mom, Dad I shot a gun today! Now just as the parents think they have regained their composure, the big question blindsides them, "CAN I HAVE ONE"? Kids today can talk their Moms and Dads in anything. (lots of time the parents show up at the house with kid I have impelled this new curiousity in).Except a $400.00 scope that tops a $150.00 gun. And a $400.00 scope is not needed. Remember this shooter is just beginning. His/Her total finances are completely dependant on their parents. The young shooter needs something that will let them enjoy their newfound sport, until they develop their skills, gain the trust and put away the fears of the parents. Then they can start upgrading their equipment. Their are great number of both new and inexperienced shooters that read this forum, they need to learn the values of good, reliable equipment, but at the same time they don't need to be scared away by thinking they have to spend a war pention everytime they upgrade, don't get me wrong they don't need to buy junk, but something they will be satisfied with, can afford, and get results with. I live in east Tennessee, and for the most part the shot distance are normally under 100 yards. At this distance sure a 5 MOA rig will put a deer down, if the nerves don't take over, if the game is standing perfectly still, if no limbs are in the way, but at 150 yards the bullet has a 71/2 " landing zone. This is where the accurizing comes in, no matter what level of experience the shooter is, if a shooter KNOWS where his bullet will land, this has done nothing but boost his confidence. It will take some of the edge off when making that 400 yard once in a lifetime tropy shot. I, by no means, encourage buying the cheapest optics that are avalible, as inconsistant grouping can ruin a new, or inexperienced shooter. I, on the other hand don't encourage buying the most expensive optics either. I have some pricey scope and I have some what are deemed to be mid-ranged scopes. No matter what the price or brand, if they won't group they won't group. I use what works. Like I said in another post, I've only had one rifle to mechanically wreck or gut a scope. And why do I go through the trouble? Because I take pride in my work. Why would anybody be satified with a 5 moa rig when they can have the same rig shooting less than 5 inch groups at 500 yards. Hope this explains my POV's, fingers getting tired.......... &nb sp; &nb sp; |
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Gotta problem rifle? I can probably help.
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BillD1
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/30/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Hello Imagunsmith, great reply, and excellent work with the kids.
You bring up many valid and interesting points that we the hunters
should and need to be aware of. I agree with you that information
and exposure is very important for not only the youth but also for the
adults. Unfortunatetly, most people who are either oppose or have
no interest in hunting, do not understand why a person would be so
cruel as to shoot an animal. They believe this to be unjust to
all the animals and people should not exhibit cold-blooded
behavior. They don't see that most hunters view the taking of an
animal as only the small part of the hunting experience. For If
we were as bad as they say, all the wildlife on this planet would have
been exterminated a long time ago. It is a shame that the
anti-hunting groups can not see all the good that the hunting has done
for the wildlife, family relationships, educational purposes, awareness
of nature, ect,ect, ect. Keep up the great work.
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Bill D
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okokdude
Optics Apprentice Joined: December/09/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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you cant shoot what you cant see!
with cheap scopes you see the woods with high end optics you can see whats in the woods in great detail. I was once of the opinion that you are, untill i looked through a schmidt bender - vs - my 4200 , boy is there a differance |
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Warhawk
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/07/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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I've finally found another fan of the Tasco Euro/Titan scopes. I have four of them now, I bought two of the 3-12x52mm Euros from competitor, or CTD somebody like that, when they were on clearance for about $50 apeice. I should have bought a dozen! I let one get away on a rifle I sold, but still have the other. It's stodd up to many rounds on a Rem Sendero in 7 STW. I've also picked up a 3-9x44mm Euro, that I am debating about where to mount it. I have two more, Titans, which I believe are nearly the same scope. The only difference I can see are the markings and the click adjustments on the Titan, the Euro was friction only. I have 1.75-6x Titan on a .375 H&H that I haven't fired yet, and a 1.5-4.5x Titan that I may put on a Marlin .45-70. Time will tell, but I believe these scopes are a real sleeper. |
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bobo27
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/23/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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I have never owned an expensive scope . been hunting for 19 years. I purchased a used gun that had a bad scope. Simmons Aetec and it was replaced with a Weaver Classic hope it holds up (7STW)
I believe in redfield scopes. I have an old redfield it is a great scope, doesn't have clicks for adjustments and can adjust less the 1/4 MOA (strange). Anyhow I have a new redfield (from Academy) I put in on a .243 Remington Woodmaster 742. But the groups are horrible (won't group). I don't know if it's the gun or scope one day I will find out (I think the barrel went south)
I don't believe in buying $1500.00 scopes and don't believe in keeping up with the Jones'. I will pay for what I can afford. Nikon's, Refields, and maybe a Leupold (never owned a leupold).
Good day. |
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Warhawk
Optics GrassHopper Joined: December/07/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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One thing that I know for sure, my eyes aren't what they used to be.
Maybe that's why I don't see the advantage in these high dollar scopes.
Brightness ... absolutely, but I know I can't see things that my 18
year old son sees. For me the important factors in a scope are:
- Durability - Maintains Zero - eye relief - brightness - clarity - repeatable adjustments |
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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has anyone noted the post dates on this thread?
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silver
Optics Master Joined: November/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2291 |
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Dale, I noted the post dates and found them interesting. Somebody was digging...
With that said, I spend alot of time around optics. I get to look at the world through lens. This months rent was earned behind the lens of a camera. What may be good glass to you sucks for me. I have a differant set of expectations. Most of the mid grade scopes do not have the glass or coatings in them that I could produce a sellable image from even if they are rugged. In fairness their price reflects that. I spend on scopes around what I would spend for a pro grade camera lens.
In fairness to the orginal question, I have to pay more for some lenses than I do camera bodies, so why should I not pay more for scopes than for rifles? Often the rifle will rise in value and help offset the cost of the intial investment. |
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