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Kowa vs. Zeiss

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trigger29 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2008 at 18:07
Thank you Ted. Thats the answer I was looking for. I still don't have the luxury of looking through them, but at least I know they somewhat compare.

Edited by trigger29 - December/11/2008 at 18:10

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2008 at 19:27
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

[QUOTE=RifleDude]I'm pretty sure those reviews will all be in reference to Kowa's 88mm and possibly their 77mm scopes HD scopes.  I don't think Kowa holds the same title in the smaller 60mm (or less) sizes.
 
The 88mm is definitely the model all the buzz centers around, being their flagship spotter, but the smaller objective Prominar models are still among the very best in their respective classes.  The TSN880's are the only Kowa spotter that uses fluorite lenses; the smaller scopes use their so-called "XD" (non-fluorite, but still extra low dispersion) glass, which is highly regarded.  The 66mm and 60mm Kowa Prominar scopes are comparable to the Zeiss Diascope 65.  For each of the 88, 77, 66, and 60mm scopes, they have both a standard and HD version, the HD versions in each objective size given the Prominar designation.
 
They acutally claim it to be flourite glass. Maybe they are the same now.
 
Features
Prominar Fluorite Lens

For the highest optical performance and optimum color fidelity.

Highest Level of Optical Performance
The 66mm diameter objective lens has more than 120% light gathering power of the 60mm objective lens. All optics are fully multi-coated for brighter, clearer and sharper viewing. Prominar ED models are also available for even better optical performance with optimum color definition.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2008 at 22:35
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

[QUOTE=RifleDude]I'm pretty sure those reviews will all be in reference to Kowa's 88mm and possibly their 77mm scopes HD scopes.  I don't think Kowa holds the same title in the smaller 60mm (or less) sizes.
 
The 88mm is definitely the model all the buzz centers around, being their flagship spotter, but the smaller objective Prominar models are still among the very best in their respective classes.  The TSN880's are the only Kowa spotter that uses fluorite lenses; the smaller scopes use their so-called "XD" (non-fluorite, but still extra low dispersion) glass, which is highly regarded.  The 66mm and 60mm Kowa Prominar scopes are comparable to the Zeiss Diascope 65.  For each of the 88, 77, 66, and 60mm scopes, they have both a standard and HD version, the HD versions in each objective size given the Prominar designation.
 
They acutally claim it to be flourite glass. Maybe they are the same now.
 
Features
Prominar Fluorite Lens

For the highest optical performance and optimum color fidelity.

Highest Level of Optical Performance
The 66mm diameter objective lens has more than 120% light gathering power of the 60mm objective lens. All optics are fully multi-coated for brighter, clearer and sharper viewing. Prominar ED models are also available for even better optical performance with optimum color definition.

 
The difference is Kowa claims the 88mm Prominar has an objective lens of pure fluorite crystal, whereas the XD lenses of the remaining Prominar series has "glass containing fluorite." 
 
Here is Kowa's explanation:
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trigger29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2008 at 14:05
Gotcha. Called Kowa today, and they confirmed your findings. Now, I still got to figure out which is going to be the nicer scope. Even the sales manager at Kowa said he would have a hard time choosing, and he should be biased.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2008 at 14:15
Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Gotcha. Called Kowa today, and they confirmed your findings. Now, I still got to figure out which is going to be the nicer scope. Even the sales manager at Kowa said he would have a hard time choosing, and he should be biased.


Too bad the Swaro 65 HD wasn't so expensive, it would've made your choice a lot easier. Smile


Edited by mike650 - December/12/2008 at 17:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2008 at 14:25
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Gotcha. Called Kowa today, and they confirmed your findings. Now, I still got to figure out which is going to be the nicer scope. Even the sales manager at Kowa said he would have a hard time choosing, and he should be biased.


Too bad the Swaro 65 HD wasn't so expensive, it would've your choice a lot easier. Smile
 
I don't know about that...
 
I think I just might pick the ED Kowa 600 or 660 series over the 65mm Swarovski.  A hunting buddy of mine has an 80mm Swaro HD and I've not been super impressed.  I can't imagine the 65mm would prove to be better.
 
I would definitely pick the 88mm Kowa over any other spotting scope on the planet - if I could only afford it.


Edited by lucznik - December/12/2008 at 14:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2008 at 14:47
Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Gotcha. Called Kowa today, and they confirmed your findings. Now, I still got to figure out which is going to be the nicer scope. Even the sales manager at Kowa said he would have a hard time choosing, and he should be biased.


Too bad the Swaro 65 HD wasn't so expensive, it would've your choice a lot easier. Smile
 
I don't know about that...
 
I think I just might pick the ED Kowa 600 or 660 series over the 65mm Swarovski.  A hunting buddy of mine has an 80mm Swaro HD and I've not been super impressed.  I can't imagine the 65mm would prove to be better.
 
I would definitely pick the 88mm Kowa over any other spotting scope on the planet - if I could only afford it.


The tests findings from the link supplied earlier on this thread tend to disagree. They rate the 65mm Swaro as number four but they also don't list all scopes either.

Funny, I've been playing with the 80mm Swaro HD this past hunting season and it's awesome. You know the saying.. "everyone's eye's are different".


Edited by mike650 - December/12/2008 at 14:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RHunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2008 at 09:46
I have been reviewing the same scopes - Zeiss 65 and Kowa 664.  From my research both are very good scopes.  The 664 doesnt use pure flourite glass like the 88MM but it is the same glass as the 774(contacted KOWA to cofirm).  In the Living Bird scope review in 08, they liked the 774 better than both the swarovski 80 and 65 ED Models and both Zeiss models.  I have been speaking regularly with Joanie from competitor.  She tests basically every scope that comes out.  She has told me that the Kowa 663/664 would be her choice over the Zeiss and they sell both models.  She rated the Kowa just a hair below the Swarovski 65HD, which scored higher than any scope she has ever tested.  She still carries the 663.  It must be pretty darn good if someone that (i assume) has access to any scope she chooses and still carries the 663. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2008 at 11:00
Originally posted by RHunter RHunter wrote:

I have been reviewing the same scopes - Zeiss 65 and Kowa 664.  From my research both are very good scopes.  The 664 doesnt use pure flourite glass like the 88MM but it is the same glass as the 774(contacted KOWA to cofirm).  In the Living Bird scope review in 08, they liked the 774 better than both the swarovski 80 and 65 ED Models and both Zeiss models.  I have been speaking regularly with Joanie from competitor.  She tests basically every scope that comes out.  She has told me that the Kowa 663/664 would be her choice over the Zeiss and they sell both models.  She rated the Kowa just a hair below the Swarovski 65HD, which scored higher than any scope she has ever tested.  She still carries the 663.  It must be pretty darn good if someone that (i assume) has access to any scope she chooses and still carries the 663. 



Here's the article I was referring to which is from Living Bird Scope Review '08.

http://www.livingbird.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=272&srcid=265#top


A link to a pdf copy of the results is below. I don't see the 663/664 mentioned but it would probably be challenge to list everything. The top three are so close it's splitting the splitting of hairs.

http://www.livingbird.org/netcommunity/bbimages/lb/pdf/ScopeChart2008.pdf



Edited by mike650 - December/13/2008 at 11:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2009 at 18:00
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by RHunter RHunter wrote:

I have been reviewing the same scopes - Zeiss 65 and Kowa 664.  From my research both are very good scopes.  The 664 doesnt use pure flourite glass like the 88MM but it is the same glass as the 774(contacted KOWA to cofirm).  In the Living Bird scope review in 08, they liked the 774 better than both the swarovski 80 and 65 ED Models and both Zeiss models.  I have been speaking regularly with Joanie from competitor.  She tests basically every scope that comes out.  She has told me that the Kowa 663/664 would be her choice over the Zeiss and they sell both models.  She rated the Kowa just a hair below the Swarovski 65HD, which scored higher than any scope she has ever tested.  She still carries the 663.  It must be pretty darn good if someone that (i assume) has access to any scope she chooses and still carries the 663. 



Here's the article I was referring to which is from Living Bird Scope Review '08.

http://www.livingbird.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=272&srcid=265#top


A link to a pdf copy of the results is below. I don't see the 663/664 mentioned but it would probably be challenge to list everything. The top three are so close it's splitting the splitting of hairs.

http://www.livingbird.org/netcommunity/bbimages/lb/pdf/ScopeChart2008.pdf



Interesting.  I definitely disagree with some parts of the review that pertains the scopes that I have seen.  Traditionally, Cornell people always grade Pentax spotters poorly (somebody forgot to grease somebody's palm perhaps?).  In this case am not clear which Pentax eyepiece they used for the PF65 and what happened to the 80mm Pentax scope.

Also, they rate all scopes at 20x and at 60x.  How exactly did they arrive at their 60x rankings for a number of scopes that do not go anywhere near that magnification? or 20x ranking for scopes that do not go that low?

If they simply look at the amount of detail visible, then they punish the manufacturers who chose to go for a lower magnification range, for example 15-45x vs 20-60x (personally, if other things are comparable, I will go with 15-45x any day).

Every time I see a review coming out of Cornell I tend to get increasingly more underwhelmed.  Perhaps, that is just me being stubborn since every time I criticize a Cornell review there is a bunch of people with pitchforks and torches after me.

On a more serious note, when looking at their reviews pick through them carefully.  There is useful information there, but you have to make sure you are looking at an apples-to-apples comparison (something that the Cornell people seem to be organically incapable of doing in the first place).

ILya


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote optik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2009 at 11:29
To my knowledge the difference in standard ED and Flourite is as follows. The standard ED is the same as the german Apochromat lenses and the fluorite is the same as the superapochromat lenses. Wikipedia has excelent articles writen in detail that would be too great to post on a message board. It would be a good place to look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2009 at 13:11
Please point me to the articles you are referring to.

What is typically referred to as ED glass is glass doped with some heavy earth elements to improve its dispersion properties.

FLurite is a soft calcium fluorite crystal, which is seldom used in sporting optics in its pure from due to being soft, fragile and subject to thermal stress.

Fluorite glass is glass doped with fluorite ions which has some of the properties of fluorite crystal without having the physical deficiencies.  It is however important to not that scatter characteristics of fluorite crystal are superior to those of fluorite-impregnated glass.

In practical terms, presence of ED- or fluorite-glass, by itself does not do much.  It all comes down to proper design.  With such glass you can typically use fewer elements in the system which reduces weight and complexity, although the special glass elements themselves get a bit more difficult to manufacture.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2009 at 13:55
Originally posted by optik optik wrote:

To my knowledge the difference in standard ED and Flourite is as follows. The standard ED is the same as the german Apochromat lenses and the fluorite is the same as the superapochromat lenses. Wikipedia has excelent articles writen in detail that would be too great to post on a message board. It would be a good place to look.


Though Wikipedia is very helpful, it's just a point of reference and is only as good as those updating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/03/2009 at 13:57
A lot of stuff on Wikipedia is very hlepful.  I am not, strictly speaking, arguing with what optik said, I am just trying to educate myself a bit.

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