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.223 or .308?

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Tip69 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 13:12
wondering about the FFL as well.  Don't you have to have business hours to have one now? 
 
I went a different route with my home defense... I have a SKS.  I like the 7.62X39 better.  If you want better than SKS, AK-47 would be next.  They are made to work in the sh*t so to speak.  I do need to stock up ammo.  was once up to 1500 rounds, but have shot a bunch since then!
 
Between the .223 & .308 - for me it comes down to do you want to kill or is just wounding ok?  If I wanted to kill, I'd go with the .308. I know I know...the .223 will kill, but I like the bigger boy when I'm serious!
 
Also, if I'm shooting out to 500 yds.... it isn't home defense anymore, and I'll use my '06 and a scope!
take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redneckbmxer24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 15:42
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

wondering about the FFL as well.  Don't you have to have business hours to have one now? 
 
I went a different route with my home defense... I have a SKS.  I like the 7.62X39 better.  If you want better than SKS, AK-47 would be next.  They are made to work in the sh*t so to speak.  I do need to stock up ammo.  was once up to 1500 rounds, but have shot a bunch since then!
 
Between the .223 & .308 - for me it comes down to do you want to kill or is just wounding ok?  If I wanted to kill, I'd go with the .308. I know I know...the .223 will kill, but I like the bigger boy when I'm serious!
 
Also, if I'm shooting out to 500 yds.... it isn't home defense anymore, and I'll use my '06 and a scope!
 
im sorry, but this just isnt very good advise.
 
who in there right mind would attempt to protect their life with a $100 chinese gun? SKS's are jam o' matic disposable rifles, and i'd pick up a stick to defend myself before i would a SKS.
 
a AK47 is a great reliable gun, more reliable than the AR... YES, more accurate though, hell no. the AK makes a great home D weapon.
 
ill take a AR-15 223 with 60, or 75GR TAP any day over a AR10, AK47, whatever for HD. those loads are both extremely high speeds, and very frangible, and will knock the crap out of somebody. plus with the lower recoil i can put rounds on target alot faster than somebody with a AR10, or AK.
 
and say they're wearing heavy clothing, or light armor you might ask. thats why the round in the chamber is 75GR AMAX TAP, next round is M855, next is 69GR SMK, then it repeats for a full 30 round mag. no matter what they're wearing, they're getting lead in them, plain and simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 17:08
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Cy if you are going with the .308 then I would get either a bushmaster or a Rock River.
The instructors at Front Sight say they are the only two brands of AR-10s that they have ever seen finish a 4 day rifle classs.

The Rock River are actually based off the Bushmaster BAR-10 design and they supposedly did a couple of improvments.  
Thanks, I appreciate the advice. I got the Armalite, I hope that wasn't a mistake.
I had heard good things about them. A buddy has the DPMS Black Panther. What are the typical problems with these two?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 17:14
Lots and lots of feeding issues.  Double feeds, stove pipes, failure to feed and such.  It seems like Armalite had a lot of problems with something in the bolt carrier breaking as well, can't remember what but it was talked about a lot on the Front Sight forum some time back. 

The DMPS worked better than the Armalite it only had feeding issues not breakages.  On AR-15.com it got so bad with people complaining about them that if someone posted a complaint about amalite's AR-10 it was immedietly deleted with threats of account deactivation.  I know a couple of the FS members got kicked off the forum for complaining about their AR-10s. 

I hope it works out for you.  One of the instructors says he got one that has worked pretty well after he did some work to it.     

Edited by supertool73 - September/29/2008 at 17:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 17:21
10-4 Thanks, I'll pass along the info. He hasn't had any problems as yet though. I hope that I'll be as lucky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuntMaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 18:28
Hey Cy,
 Go over to AR 15 .com and look over the threads. Cheap Trick got me started over there and it has been intoxicating with info on these rifles.
 I've got to send C.T. my Doctors bill for this severe case of black rifle disease I have.
Derek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 18:44
Thanks D, I appreciate that info. I've been over there a time or two. "LURKING"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 19:40
Why do you say you need a FFL???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/29/2008 at 21:58
Originally posted by redneckbmxer24 redneckbmxer24 wrote:

Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

wondering about the FFL as well.  Don't you have to have business hours to have one now? 
 
I went a different route with my home defense... I have a SKS.  I like the 7.62X39 better.  If you want better than SKS, AK-47 would be next.  They are made to work in the sh*t so to speak.  I do need to stock up ammo.  was once up to 1500 rounds, but have shot a bunch since then!
 
Between the .223 & .308 - for me it comes down to do you want to kill or is just wounding ok?  If I wanted to kill, I'd go with the .308. I know I know...the .223 will kill, but I like the bigger boy when I'm serious!
 
Also, if I'm shooting out to 500 yds.... it isn't home defense anymore, and I'll use my '06 and a scope!
 
im sorry, but this just isnt very good advise.
 
who in there right mind would attempt to protect their life with a $100 chinese gun? SKS's are jam o' matic disposable rifles, and i'd pick up a stick to defend myself before i would a SKS.
 
a AK47 is a great reliable gun, more reliable than the AR... YES, more accurate though, hell no. the AK makes a great home D weapon.
 
ill take a AR-15 223 with 60, or 75GR TAP any day over a AR10, AK47, whatever for HD. those loads are both extremely high speeds, and very frangible, and will knock the crap out of somebody. plus with the lower recoil i can put rounds on target alot faster than somebody with a AR10, or AK.
 
and say they're wearing heavy clothing, or light armor you might ask. thats why the round in the chamber is 75GR AMAX TAP, next round is M855, next is 69GR SMK, then it repeats for a full 30 round mag. no matter what they're wearing, they're getting lead in them, plain and simple.
so explain to me then if the .223 is so great why our military is slowly going back to the old m14's?? the .223 isnt a man killer, the whole reason the military used it was because colt was in bed with the white house when the contract came up for bid. the .223 is a maming crippling cartridge, not a killer. face it a wounded soldier is a huge burden on a platoon, way more than a dead one is for sure, and war aint fair or pretty so that along with the ability of the troops to carry way more ammo with the same amount of weight i can see why they went that route. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mithran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 01:07
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

so explain to me then if the .223 is so great why our military is slowly going back to the old m14's?? the .223 isnt a man killer, the whole reason the military used it was because colt was in bed with the white house when the contract came up for bid. the .223 is a maming crippling cartridge, not a killer. face it a wounded soldier is a huge burden on a platoon, way more than a dead one is for sure, and war aint fair or pretty so that along with the ability of the troops to carry way more ammo with the same amount of weight i can see why they went that route. 
 
Our military has gone back to the .308 cartridge because .308 has better penetration on intermediate barriers in MOUT.  We screwed the 5.56 up pretty bad.  We are using a 5.56mm round that has too much penetration on people.  The 62gr M855 was designed to be the most accurate it could be out of the M249's and punch through body armor and helmets, something our current enemy doesn't have.  Some brilliant person thought it would be a good idea to just make all 5.56 the same.  Tell the Russians that the original 55gr 5.56 round wasn't devistating.  My memory serves me well when I say the Russians developed their 5.45x39mm cartridge as a direct result of reports of the lethality of the round during Vietnam.
 
More time and money needs to be spent training our Warriors to place that round where it needs to go rather than wasting time trying to find a wonder pill, trying to fix what's not broken.  Loco  Drop that damn F35 and get our boys out on the range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 06:34
Pyro, you are exactly right about the maiming part, and if you are fighting that type of army that takes care of its wounded the way we do then that is an advantage. Otherwise it isn't.
 
Mithran, you make a very valid argument about training, we really do need alot more defense spending especially in this area. I have been out of the Army now for 13 years, and if we had the goodies that todays soldiers have access to, man the things we could have done. Clinton cut training budgets to the bone, and did his absolute best to reallocate that funding to all of his special interests like welfare etc. Todays army is well equipped and poorly trained by comparison.
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OATH KEEPER #8233 Support us, and join our cause.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 06:36
Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Why do you say you need a FFL???
To answer the questions about the FFL, it's my understanding that you need one to own a fully automatic rifle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redneckbmxer24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 14:09
first off, AR's arn't full auto, they can be, but when referring to a AR15, its a semi-auto rifle, buying one is no different than any other rifle.
 
a FFL is going to do nothing for purchasing full auto's, you need to either file a form 4, and pay the tax stamp, or get a class 3 license, which is BIG BIG $$.
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Tip69 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 14:10
Cy, not sure that is entirely correct since they changed the requirements for the FFL.  I think its possible to get the fully auto without the FFL, but I might be mistaken about that.  I would check into that before you go the FFL route.  I know for sure that you have to have regular published open hours - as in the case of a retail business - to get an FFL now.
take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 14:11
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Why do you say you need a FFL???
To answer the questions about the FFL, it's my understanding that you need one to own a fully automatic rifle. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 14:22
I have looked into this a lot.

You do not need an FFL to get a full auto.  An FFL alows you to sell guns.  A class 3 FFL allows you to sell full auto guns.

All you need to do is go to a class 3 dealer pay for the gun and they will give you the  proper paper work which you will send to the BATF with $200 and they do an extensive background check on you.  Once you pass (which will take several months) then you can go pick up the specifc full auto gun you bought.  It is completely registered and controlled.

Also a civiallians can only buy a full autos that were made and registered prior to the 1986 full auto ban.  Chances of you finding a full auto AR in .308 is very slim.  On top of that a full auto M-16 will cost you upwards of $20,000.  You would be better off looking for an M14 as I have never seen a full auto AR in .308 that is civialian legal.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html they are a class 3 dealer here in utah, check out there site.  Full auto guns are insane expensive.

If you have a person trying to sell you a full auto gun.  Run away very fast.  The gun is probably illegal and it is a felony to own one without going through the BATF and a class 3 dealer.  Either that or the guy converted it to full auto on his own which is also a felony.  FOr all you know it might be a BATF agent doing a sting.  I have heard of them doing stuff like that all the time. 

Not to long ago a guy was convicted and threw in prison because his AR which he borrowed to another guy who was shooting at the time had a the sear wear out and it shot a burst at a shooting range.  Someone called the authorties and the owner of the gun got convicted of owning an illegal full auto gun.  They flat out threw him in jail. 

So if you are getting a full auto, make sure to do it through a class 3 dealer.  They will be able to set you up so it is done right.


Edited by supertool73 - September/30/2008 at 14:47
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 14:24
Originally posted by redneckbmxer24 redneckbmxer24 wrote:

Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

wondering about the FFL as well.  Don't you have to have business hours to have one now? 
 
I went a different route with my home defense... I have a SKS.  I like the 7.62X39 better.  If you want better than SKS, AK-47 would be next.  They are made to work in the sh*t so to speak.  I do need to stock up ammo.  was once up to 1500 rounds, but have shot a bunch since then!
 
Between the .223 & .308 - for me it comes down to do you want to kill or is just wounding ok?  If I wanted to kill, I'd go with the .308. I know I know...the .223 will kill, but I like the bigger boy when I'm serious!
 
Also, if I'm shooting out to 500 yds.... it isn't home defense anymore, and I'll use my '06 and a scope!
 
im sorry, but this just isnt very good advise.
 
who in there right mind would attempt to protect their life with a $100 chinese gun? SKS's are jam o' matic disposable rifles, and i'd pick up a stick to defend myself before i would a SKS.
 
a AK47 is a great reliable gun, more reliable than the AR... YES, more accurate though, hell no. the AK makes a great home D weapon.
....
 
Well, I really wasn't advising anyone to go out and buy a SKS.... I just stated that is what I did.  I have sent somewhere in the neighborhood of 2K rounds thru mine without even 1 Jam, misfire or misfeed!  If I would have had issues, I would have gotten rid of it!    It was inexpensive, but I wouldn't call mine a "jam o' matic disposable rifle".  Also, mine is not chinese.... its Russian I think. 
 
I mostly got it because of the ability to use a large clip and be able to shoot many rounds in a short period.  When I need accuracy, I'll use something else. 
 
I suppose the ARs have had some improvements over the years, but the folks that I talked to in the military that used them, didn't have very good things to say about them.  They felt under armed when facing enemies with the AKs.
take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 14:26
I have a yugo SKS and it runs flawlessly as well.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 15:07
Cyborg,

Armalite makes a fine rifle.  For many, many years the rule of AR buying was to stay with the, "A,B,C's": Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt.  Today, Bushmaster makes hit n' miss guns but Rock River Arms makes great stuff.

The .308 is a great round in an accurate gun and is quite fun in semi-auto.  Unfortuantely, the Tool is (for once) right that full auto .308 is tough to come by and expensive as hell to obtain.  Also, you cannot take a semi- auto and convert it. Full-auto .308 options will be VERY slim; however, semi is fun too.

Getting a semi-auto in .308, I wouldn't avoid the M1A rifles in the consideration.  AR-platforms are great, easiler to set up (optics on M1s have always been a challenge without swapping out the entire stock.)  I've considered an AR in .308.

One final note: be sure to size your brass back to spec before relaoding it.  I shot all my brass through a .308 bolt gun, left it fire formed and one day tried to chamber a round (fire-formed in my bolt gun) into my SOCOM: not good.  You can learn from isntruction what I learned from experience.  Be advised.

Remington now has a .308 AR gun, don't know much about it, but it shouldn't totally suck.  The Armalite is a great gun, enjoy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/30/2008 at 15:20
Thanks guys, I really appreciate the advice and all of your input. I admittedly know little about what our government wants out of us. It seems to me that we as law abiding citizens should be capable and able to own and carry such weapons without the red tape.
I have looked into this and I can get a conversion for the AR but only by jumping through alot of hoops. Cencored   Isn't that a crock of dung????? Not gonna put myself through all of that. If the time comes when all guns are illegal, then I will just have to break a few laws at that time.  Evil%20Black%20Rifle
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