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cyborg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2008 at 22:05
Corporations are not at fault. The fault lies solely with the Government for bastardizing a free economy at the behest of those that are too full of laziness and envy to actually better their own lives. They'd rather sit there and point fingers and scream about how unfair it all is.
One more thing while we are on the subject. Did any of you take the opportunity to buy some bargain stocks? It's during the swings of the market that people make the most amount of money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2008 at 03:46
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Corporations are not at fault. The fault lies solely with the Government for bastardizing a free economy at the behest of those that are too full of laziness and envy to actually better their own lives. They'd rather sit there and point fingers and scream about how unfair it all is.
One more thing while we are on the subject. Did any of you take the opportunity to buy some bargain stocks? It's during the swings of the market that people make the most amount of money.


Spot on, sir.  As a side note, I am using the opportunity indeed.  My investment horizon is long and I am laying the foundation for it right now.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Connelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2008 at 06:09
(..........so all this time I have been out there in the world working for a paycheck....I should have been wanting POWER...............? )    Whacko        [ I also wanted to get laid........]    Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeltFed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2008 at 10:09
If you have the power, you can screw all kinds of people out of their paychecks, just like the Democrats.QuickieAnd you don't even have to kiss them!Kiss
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2008 at 10:18
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

Corporations are not at fault. The fault lies solely with the Government for bastardizing a free economy at the behest of those that are too full of laziness and envy to actually better their own lives. They'd rather sit there and point fingers and scream about how unfair it all is.
One more thing while we are on the subject. Did any of you take the opportunity to buy some bargain stocks? It's during the swings of the market that people make the most amount of money.


Spot on, sir.  As a side note, I am using the opportunity indeed.  My investment horizon is long and I am laying the foundation for it right now.

ILya
I figured that you were Ilya. You and Dale being the two smartest people here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2008 at 10:19
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

If you have the power, you can screw all kinds of people out of their paychecks, just like the Democrats.QuickieAnd you don't even have to kiss them!Kiss
Plus the things that you can do in the White House while security watches out for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2008 at 10:41
The problems with Wall Street started long before this, they have been fighting any regulation since the regulations were put in to protect the people after the crash of 29.
There was even a plot to overthrow the government by force in 1935 backed by the financial people of Wall Street.  They have worked slowly to get the oversight removed and now they want us to bail them out.  This has happen many times in many countries, essentially they are saying trust me, give me your money but no regulations.  For those of us old enough to remember the Ann Rand capitalist utopia of her books everything depends on everyone being good honest people  that will treat you fairly, if that were true there would be no need for police etc.
 
Duce Sad
 


Edited by Duce - September/21/2008 at 13:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2008 at 15:58
 I think some got lost in my b*tching .... now we have to bail out those idiots who screwed us ... no matter who did it ! And it was just released alot of them contributed to the Obama campaign ! I'm quite sure every leach that made tens of thousands or more from them are very happy and wanted this bail-out . It's not helping one iota the folks who lost .... just the fat cat scum bags who run the organizations and their backers . The execs are still going to collect their 6 figure or 9 figure incomes/salaries with no punishment . For all that think it's okay ... wire the extra tax burden I will have to pay to my bank account .... at my wife's and my level of taxaction it's a whopper !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2008 at 16:02
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

A couple of questions, gentlemen:

Earlier in this thread someone said that Greenspan should be tried for treason.  I am very curious as to where Greenspan committed treason.

Another observation: it looks like this lunacy of blaming some unidentified "corporations" for all of our problems has even penetrated this forum.  "Corporations" are the new boogeyman, I suppose.   Corporations of some sort employ most of us.  If you think they make too much money, feel free to become a shareholder.  As for Enron, the best I can tell Enron did not really break the law.  The government simply decided to make an example of them.

ILya
 
  YOU'VE GOT TO BE JOKING  !!!   Loco  Enron !!!!!  Dick Cheney !!!!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2008 at 16:04
Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

A wise friend of mine once asked me what was the MOST important thing that people want. I replied money. He said " No, it's power" he explained with power you will have money, but the objective is to have power over people so that you can get what you want by having someone else to get it for you and have them endebted to you. He said, "Why else would someone spend more money to run for an office than what that office pays. It's for the power and with that they will get the money back many times over".
A teacher told my class that the difference between a politician and a statesman was that a politician was in office for himself and a statesman was in office for his country. Why does everyone in office call themselves politicians?
I agree with Merc on many things, but not this one. Is Bush perfect, no. Has he made mistakes, yes, but so has every president before him. Bush's biggest problem has been all those politicians and people seeking power at our expense.
That's just my thoughts on the topic for now.
 
 The only mistake Bush made was bailing them out !!!! he had nothing to do with the execs .. and I never meant that !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2008 at 17:48
I will believe public corporations are not a problem when they have to follow the same laws as private business. The first change should be the officers of the corporation should not be allowed to pay themselves  a bonus when they are bankrupting the corporation. Example -Ken Lay pulled 349 million out of Enron the year it went bankrupt and some friends of mine went back to work at 69 years old.  The corporate laws need reform badly.Sad
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/21/2008 at 22:35
Originally posted by mercenary1947 mercenary1947 wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

A couple of questions, gentlemen:

Earlier in this thread someone said that Greenspan should be tried for treason.  I am very curious as to where Greenspan committed treason.

Another observation: it looks like this lunacy of blaming some unidentified "corporations" for all of our problems has even penetrated this forum.  "Corporations" are the new boogeyman, I suppose.   Corporations of some sort employ most of us.  If you think they make too much money, feel free to become a shareholder.  As for Enron, the best I can tell Enron did not really break the law.  The government simply decided to make an example of them.

ILya
 
  YOU'VE GOT TO BE JOKING  !!!   Loco  Enron !!!!!  Dick Cheney !!!!! 


I am not joking.  Please explain to me what was the illegal thing that Enron or Dick Cheney, for that matter, did.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 05:30
Fraud,  Jerry%20Springer Lay and Partners were convicted
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 08:06

 Here are just a few quotes from federal investigators to start :

Congressional investigators have uncovered "substantial evidence of illegal activity" by the now-bankrupt Enron Corp. and its management, Rep. Billy Tauzin, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, said on Wednesday.
 Tauzin also criticized Enron's auditor, saying Arthur Andersen "knew or should have discovered the fraudulent nature" of certain transactions with outside partnerships managed by former Enron Chief Financial Officer Andrew Fastow, Tauzin said, adding that "Enron's financial statements violated numerous existing accounting rules."
 Tuesday, a witness said Enron gave millions in bonuses to top executives two days before filing for bankruptcy last year, then fired thousands of employees without the severance pay to which they were entitled, a tearful former company worker told Congress Tuesday.
 At another hearing, the author of the withering Enron internal investigation described how the executives "enriched themselves ... by tens of millions of dollars" through questionable partnerships.
 Enron executives made a conscious decision to prohibit employees from selling their company assets as its stock price plummeted amid shady deal-making and accounting.
Richard Causey, the last of the top Enron Corp. executives to learn his punishment, was sentenced Wednesday to five-and-a-half years in prison for his role in one of the biggest corporate scandals in U.S. history.

Causey, the company’s former chief accounting officer, pleaded guilty in December to securities fraud two weeks before he was to be tried along with Enron founder Kenneth Lay and former Chief Executive Jeffrey Skilling on conspiracy, fraud and other charges related to the company’s collapse.

 Get real if they were innocent appeals would have been made !  This puts a low score on your judgement my friend ...  I AM SHOCKED !!!!!  I thought much more highly of you .
 Skilling and Lay were convicted in May of conspiracy and fraud.

Andrew Fastow, Enron’s ex-chief financial officer whose schemes helped doom the company, was sentenced in September to six years and is serving his term in a federal prison in Louisiana.

 Don't even get me started on Dick Cheney and his corrupt dealings !! He could'nt be prosocuted as a sitting vice president ... BUT sorry for him .. once he leaves office he can be and many want to start proceedings against him to also put him in prison .... and I'm talking republicans along with the angered folks too .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 08:08
Re: Greenspan
 
I don't think that he did anything criminal or treasonous.  Egotistical, yes, but not the other two.  I got about half way through his book (Boring and I like that sort of stuff).  He thought that central planing could control the US economy.  He found out that it was too big, complex, and moved too fast.  Thus the real problem.  By the time people figure out what is going on, it is to late. 
 
Here is the next thing he found out.  By the time they figured stuff out the market had corrected its self.  The correction was a bit of a messy business as the market tends to over correct as value adjusts because of emotion (fear & greed).  As risk becomes understood then it reaches balance.
 
What Greenspan did do was put out, what today are minor, fires.  That allowed things to go on rather than take some needed correction.  That unseen correction would have decreased the moral hazzard we have hang over our heads now. That is his failure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Understand that we had billions of dollars produced from the sale of un-understood or even developed inticlectual property in the dot com age and that money went someplace.  Given the nature of our fractional reserve banking system that money also has a loan value of 10x.  Every Million in is ten million in loans. When that money is injected into the economy it then multiplies by a factor of seven. So 1 million dollars just became 70 million.  When converted into real property (real estate) it also developes a tax base.
 
Congress now desides that more people should own homes.  They are making thier rent payments... So if they can pay rent, they can make house payments equal to thier rent payments.  Sounds good on paper.  Tell the bankers to open the flood gates.
 
Those people are then sold more house than they can afford becase of the way the loan is structored.  They were told that you will be making more money in the future... In the mean time thier property taxes started to raise faster than thier pay check.
 
Now on the bank side you have people lending money with less than two percent down.  The people who they are loaning the money to are using the house like a saving a account.  The banks are telling the appraiser "We will find, somebody, to get us the value! and when we do they will get most of our business." Local government is seeing thier tax base rise. 
 
Now understand we (Americans) spend a lot of money on trinkets.  At least with guns and optics I can get a reasonable percentage of my money back. That money went to China.  We then refied to pay off our cards, thus we owe our house to China.  That's not counting  what government bonds china holds or stocks. So our houses now not only belong to the local government, maybe the state, the feds hold the morgage, and China holds the paper on that.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 08:23
 Alas another bunch of corrupt blood suckers are being "bailed out " at the cost to descent americans who play by the rules but always get screwed by scumbags and their backers .... these organizations should be left to disappear from their fraudulent and moronic dealings !
  Mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae (FNM, Fortune 500) and Freddie Mac (FRE, Fortune 500) earlier this month and escalated this week with the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers (LEH, Fortune 500) and the $85 billion loan to American International Group (AIG, Fortune 500 .
 
They're no better than back alley gangsters robbing children of their lunch money and the poor and people who cannot afford to put a descent meal on their table to feed their kids from what the results have become from their actions .... all their executives should be fired or put in jail also .... John McCain stated at the least the main man should lose his job and Bush should immediatly be making moves to FIRE him . I hope when you proudly look at your portfolio .... you think of the millions of descent americans who can't afford it ... will pay  for what those scumbags and their backers did . They almost destroyed our economy and still may have ... many say this bailout may not work .... it's just a temporary fix . But alas the common man pays with blood for the elite wealthy once again !!!!
 Greenspan can't be blamed ... he did'nt give out the lousey loans .... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did anyone know we're borrowing funds from Saudi Arabia to help bolster our debts ??? The arabs for christ's sake !!!
 
 I laugh everytime I hear one of these people with a couple houses ... a small business ... a nice little portfolio ... under the impression they are one of the elite wealthy ... some of my own relatives are among them ... Brother let me tell you something ... when I worked for our president ... I saw real wealth ... wealth you can't imagine ! Those with those pipe dreams thinking they are among them are a joke ... they and you who think so cannot enter into their organizations ... clubs ... or attend their functions ... shop at their stores ... or be allowed to associate in any form or manner with them . You would be surprised to think what their opinion of the common citizen is .... low ... very low . Being in the group of what we were called " THE PRESIDENT'S MEN " ..... with the stature and ID ... I heard all the back room chatter .... when we put those large ID tags around our necks ... the ones you see on tv ... and went to the White House and functions we  heard it all . I still have one framed on my wall .... but those places are like the advertisement for Vegas .... what's heard and seen there = stays there ! 


Edited by mercenary1947 - September/22/2008 at 08:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 09:00
 And as far as me becoming a shareholder ... I and a sister in law who took my advice many months ago sold and bought GOLD !!!  We now have a huge surplus and can buy back the lower priced stocks we once owned  and have many 10's of thousands to spare .... LOL ! Not yet ... the bottom has not gotten there yet ... this micro burst is'nt going to last long .
 
 Gold prices soared Wednesday, jumping more than $60 an ounce as mounting credit market turmoil prodded jittery investors to pull money out of equities and into safe–haven assets.

Gold’s huge rally – prices shot up over 8 percent – came as the government moved overnight to rescue troubled insurer American International Group Inc. with an $85 million bailout loan. The Federal Reserve stepped in after AIG, teetering on collapse from losses tied to the subprime crisis and the credit crisis, failed to find adequate capital in the private sector.

Fearing more tightening of credit markets, investors reacted swiftly and began dumping stocks and socking money into gold, silver and other safe–haven commodities. Gold is especially attractive during times of crisis because the metal is known for holding its value.

Gold for December delivery jumped $64.50, or 8.25 percent, to $845 an ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange, its highest trading level since Aug. 29. Prior to the rally, gold had fallen 25 percent since surging to record levels above $1,000 an ounce in March.

’’The same market participants who got out of gold are coming back in now. This is the start of an upward move,’’ said Carlos Sanchez, analyst with CPM Group in New York, who predicted prices could climb back to $1,000 by year’s end.



Edited by mercenary1947 - September/22/2008 at 09:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 09:31
When you invest in gold you don't actually get gold right?  So what makes you so sure when the sh*t hits the fan there will actually be enough gold to cover all the debt that is owed to people?  If it is anything like the banks work you can loan out a lot more than what the bank actually holds.  Makes me wonder if gold is as safe as everyone thinks.  They could be hiding behind a lie just like all these other companies right now.  Also when you cash out they give you paper money or more than likely electronic money which could be completely worthless, because it just keeps being printed with no value to back it up.  Unless you actually got the gold I don't think it will be of any more value in the tough times.

Silver has hit it on the head, get debt free as fast as you can and get a long and short term food supply and a supply of what ever else is needed to make ends meet in the tough times ahead.  I have a feeling things are going to get pretty bad before things get any better.

Edited by supertool73 - September/22/2008 at 09:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 11:08
Tool,
 
Who says you can't take possesion of gold?   You can own gold and silver bullion. You can get bar or coins. Or you can own gold art or jewlery.  Coins or bars are your best bet.  The commision is hell when you buy or sell.  Then that is easier to figure than a ring or necklace at a pawn shop.
 
  You  can own an index like ticker: gld.  You can own the mining company like: BPH or FCX ( Those mine other things as well).
 
Un like real estate, in most places there are no taxes on owning gold except for a sales tax.  Some places have a personal property tax.  Gold is never worth zero.  Gold however never produces an income stream. Which is why most people prefer real estate as a hedge (They can get some use or income from it while they hold it.). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/22/2008 at 11:36
I am talking investing in options, futures, mutual funds that sort of thing that are supposably backed by gold.  It just seems as risky to me as buying regular old stocks.  Just like our paper currency is suppose to be backed by gold.  Another wonderful lie by our government. 

I guess that was my whole point it would be better to actually have the gold in hand as it is tangible and something a person will always be able to trade with other than just some paper saying you own this or that. 

But ya, good clarification on your part Silver.  I should have clarified what I was saying better to start with.
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