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45/70 vs 450 marlin

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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 10:49
Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

When comparing any two rifles, lever, bolt or otherwise side by side in the gun shop, one needs to be a little instinctive, take enough time in working the actions, comparing trigger pulls, comfort, carrying, handling, shouldering both and simulate as best as possible what the rifle will be like on a hunt.
 
Whether I had the money or didn`t, I would rather buy one, trusting my knowledge and instincts, instead of buying two rifles.


See to me that is like looking through a pair of binos or a scope in the store and trying to tell which is best.  I have learned the only way to test a rifle is to test it the exact way you would use it.  But that is not practical or possible in most situations, so I agree you just have to do the best you can in the store and hope for the best. 

I have gotten to the point where I will not buy a gun unless I try it out first.  One of the advantages of being a member at Front Sight, there are tons and tons of guns that run through that place from other members and intructors that I can try and play which at least gives me a head start on my decsisons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 10:55
Well! .....Along with my instincts, I trust Browning a little too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 16:58
My vote is for 45-70. I learned something last year about belted cartridges that I had somehow overlooked. The belt does not get re-sized by the dye when reloading. In some cases that may not be an issue however I have a custom 300 Win Mag made by GAPrecision and needless to say it was a bit tight chambering that reload but the true frustration did not set in untill I touched off that first round out of the rifle and found that I could not get the spent case to come out of the chamber. After calling George he explained to me that of the many possible 300 WM reamers available they use the one specified by the U.S. Navy and since the belt of the cartridge does not get re-sized I would need to use either factory new ammo or handloads made using factory new brass.  I was on the range with it today using my handloads with factory new brass and the last three shots at 200 yds were all in the same hole.  Needless to say the rifle shoots better than I do but I'm a tad shy of belted magnums now.  The only 45-70 I have at this time is an Encore pistol and it is quite a conversation piece and stops deer nicely.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 17:07
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

My vote is for 45-70. I learned something last year about belted cartridges that I had somehow overlooked. The belt does not get re-sized by the dye when reloading. In some cases that may not be an issue however I have a custom 300 Win Mag made by GAPrecision and needless to say it was a bit tight chambering that reload but the true frustration did not set in untill I touched off that first round out of the rifle and found that I could not get the spent case to come out of the chamber. After calling George he explained to me that of the many possible 300 WM reamers available they use the one specified by the U.S. Navy and since the belt of the cartridge does not get re-sized I would need to use either factory new ammo or handloads made using factory new brass.  I was on the range with it today using my handloads with factory new brass and the last three shots at 200 yds were all in the same hole.  Needless to say the rifle shoots better than I do but I'm a tad shy of belted magnums now.  The only 45-70 I have at this time is an Encore pistol and it is quite a conversation piece and stops deer nicely.


Have you tried a Forester resizing die?  I was having the same problem with my BAR in 7mm and I tried a RCBS die and Hornady dies and finnally bought the Forester and it goes clear down around the belt and so far I have not had a problem with a resized with that die yet.  So maybe it will help you has well.


Edited by supertool73 - August/06/2008 at 17:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 18:48
Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

My vote is for 45-70. I learned something last year about belted cartridges that I had somehow overlooked. The belt does not get re-sized by the dye when reloading. In some cases that may not be an issue however I have a custom 300 Win Mag made by GAPrecision and needless to say it was a bit tight chambering that reload but the true frustration did not set in untill I touched off that first round out of the rifle and found that I could not get the spent case to come out of the chamber. After calling George he explained to me that of the many possible 300 WM reamers available they use the one specified by the U.S. Navy and since the belt of the cartridge does not get re-sized I would need to use either factory new ammo or handloads made using factory new brass.  I was on the range with it today using my handloads with factory new brass and the last three shots at 200 yds were all in the same hole.  Needless to say the rifle shoots better than I do but I'm a tad shy of belted magnums now.  The only 45-70 I have at this time is an Encore pistol and it is quite a conversation piece and stops deer nicely.
........................Interesting!.............Before I got my compact 300 WSM, I had my 300 Win. Mag. Vanguard for 35 years. I reloaded thousands of 300 WM rounds and not once, did I ever have a problem with chambering caused by the belt.
 
I full sized every case, different case brands too, with a RCBS full length sizing die.
 
Appears to me that the reamer specified by the US Navy was the problem with your 300 and not caused by the belt itself. Personally, I wouldn`t shy away from any belted magnum.
 
The belt`s dimensions, if a cartridge is belted, had better be taken into account after firing upon the rifle manufacture, so that when the belt cannot be resized during the full length re-sizing process, it will still chamber and extract properly.
 
Unless I`m missing something and if the manufacturers use the proper reamer, I haven`t heard or read of any extraction issues due to the belt with the 270, 7mm, 300, 340 Wbys., the 7mm Rem. Mag., the 300 H&H, the 458 W/M, the 450 Marlin, or any other belted cartridge for that matter.
 
When I start reloading and firing the 450 Marlin, I`ll watch for any extraction problems.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 18:51
Just to on the safe side, I`ll see if Forester makes a full length die for the 450.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 19:13
I did not run into that problem with my 7mm until I had reloaded them a couple times.  I was full size resizing everytime, buy my hornady die was just not getting to the belt.  So I tried RCBS same problem.  Hopefully this Forester has corrected my problem.  I swore I would never get another belted again too.  But now I am willing to give them a try again sometime in the future. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 19:23
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I did not run into that problem with my 7mm until I had reloaded them a couple times.  I was full size resizing everytime, buy my hornady die was just not getting to the belt.  So I tried RCBS same problem.  Hopefully this Forester has corrected my problem.  I swore I would never get another belted again too.  But now I am willing to give them a try again sometime in the future. 

......Too late now, but I will give Browning a call later and find out if they have received any hard extraction reports, due to the belts on the 450 BLR`s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 19:27
Seems to me that the right die can be critical......I wonder what brands of full length dies  all the belted cartridge owners are using??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 19:33
I am sure it has a lot to do with chambers as well.  The way these factory guns are made, none of them are going to be perfectly the same from gun to gun.

Like you said before, you have used tons of them and never had a problem.  When I started to have problems I done tons of searches and it certainly did not seem like a large scale problem to me. 

I wouldn't be to concerned about it, probably just happens to a few people here and there just like every other firearm problem. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 19:50
Just got off the Forester site......No 450 Marlin dies.......The largest is the 375`s...........I call RCBS and Hornady too,,,,,later!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 20:06
What would it take for GAP to cut you a die from the same reamerThinking?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helo18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 20:28
Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Just got off the Forester site......No 450 Marlin dies.......The largest is the 375`s...........I call RCBS and Hornady too,,,,,later!
 
Hornady makes dies for both the 450 and 45/70.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helo18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 20:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 20:41
Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Just got off the Forester site......No 450 Marlin dies.......The largest is the 375`s...........I call RCBS and Hornady too,,,,,later!
 
Hornady makes dies for both the 450 and 45/70.
 
..................I know that Hornady has dies for the 450!.....Supertool stated that he used Hornady and RCBS full length dies on his belted mag and it didn`t resize the belt down enough....He stated Foresters working better so far! No Forester dies for the 450.
 
I`ll call RCBS, Hornady and Browning and find out if there were, or are any problems with 450 Marlin belt re-sizing issues on extraction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helo18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 20:48
Sorry, my bad, read it the wrong way!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 21:01
If I find out that there are alot of belt resizing and extraction issues with the 450 Marlin chambered in the BLR, I`ll re-consider my choice. I do not want any reloading or extraction problems!!..........Better to find out ahead of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2008 at 00:37
I started with RCBS dies and switched to Redding Competition dies but the Forester may be a future investment. I also have a 300 WM Ruger that shoots reloads no problem and have had an Encore 300WM that would shoot reloads as long as you were content with a 4inch group at 100.  Yep - had. I'm sure that the selection of that specific reamer is an accuracy issue as GAP intends their guns to shoot well and George told me it would be a one hole gun which it certainly appears to be. I just need to advance to a scope that can take it closer to its potential (U.S. OpticsSleep) for now it wears a 3.5-10 FFP Leupold Mk 4 with Kenton knobs. I just do what George told me and buy new brass then the once fired stuff goes to the Ruger  300 WM.  Not really sure I like the AI stock thumbhole and length of the bolt handle I may try wrapping something around the grip to make it larger for my big paws.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Squeeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2008 at 11:23
U- Friend...........I was on the phone today with Browning, RCBS and Hornady........No problems to report from anyone regarding hard extractions due to the 450 Marlin`s belt using either die.
 
Just as I had thought as well, RCBS indicated that the belt is not suppose to expand upon firing and if so, it is extremely mi-nute. Their full size die as does Hornady`s, does not resize the belt.
 
Browning also had nothing to report from any 450 BLR owners. I told them your story and they did indicate, as I figured they would, that the proper reamer must be used for any belted magnum cartridge chamber during the manufacturing process. If not, then problems will occur just like the one you had with harsher extractions.
 
I always for 35 years, fully resized my 300 WM brass using RCBS and never had an extraction problem due to the belt. And the RCBS dies have never and don`t now, resize the belts.
 
Yep! The wrong reamer was used on your rifle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2008 at 11:32
Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

 
Yep! The wrong reamer was used on your rifle.


I highly doubt it was the "wrong" reamer.  It was intended to be tight and is probably considerably tighter than the extra slop the factory guns makers use to make them work with a wide variety of ammo, including reloaded.  Factory guns are not even in the same league compared to tolerances that are used in a GAP gun, we are talking a whole different ball game here.
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