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10mm FBI study |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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I omitted the fact that you were talking about OAL in 1911 mags, thanks.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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SSSTHOPPP ITT!!!!
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22287 |
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Back to the original post. The FBI had their 10mm loaded down so the recoil wouldn't hurt their sensitive little hands,and so they could recover from recoil faster. That is where S&W got the idea to make the 40S&W; less velocity needed, less powder. Less powder needed shorter case, and small pistol primer helped keep pressures close. Shorter cases could be used in 9mm frames that more people could use. S&W started with the 4006 that was a beefed up overbuilt 5906 with a 11rd magazine. Beretta and Glock were next with higher rd capacity and the rest is history. Oh yea, the original 10mm pill was 200gr., and original 40S&W pill was 180gr.
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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Dale Clifford
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: July/04/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
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several predecessors to the 10-- 41 action express, 40/45, but a guy by the name of Dave Sanford once pres. of IPSC and editor of front site actually was the first, this was about 2 years before jenks and S&W started playing with it. Occured way back when the 10 was getting started. the 10's did not feed very well in ipsc and require a 24-26 lb spring which takes an RO and the shooter to load the guns. Sanford cut the 10 mm cases down and had guns built for them and shot for several years. S&W didn't like the lg pistol primer for smaller frame, introduced this and the rd. Tom Campbell from S&W was using the 10 in the older smiths about this same time. That summer glock introduced the 40 in the 17 frame which didn't work unti they modified it to take a cross pin recoil lug seen today.
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niles coyote
Optics Apprentice Joined: October/25/2007 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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Meeting major power factor is not hard to do with a .40 guys.... Just pick your powder and bullet weight while using your head. Ive been racing a Glock 35 for years and my duty glock 22 before that, and a HK usp40 before that....
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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I pick and choose what calibers to load since it takes about the same time to load expensive rifle cartridges or pistol cartridges. So I am quite satisfied to let the state buy my 40S&W ammo while I spend time loading rifle cartridges.
I dont like to reload something where I have to chase brass to recover half of it. I have been quite satisfied with my issued Glock 22 and have a Glock 35 that I changed the sights to night sights and use for my off duty gun.
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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VN350X10
Optics GrassHopper Joined: April/13/2008 Location: McHenry, IL Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Most factory ammo in .40S&W makes major. It's just the "gamers" that try the heavy bullet/fast powder/light recoil theory in .40 that have problems.
The original ballistics of a 40 were a 180 gr @ 950, +/- 25 fps, this yields a PF of 171 (nominal).
Anybody ever hear of the .40 G&A ? It used cut down .224 Wby. for the case (with the belt) in a modified BHP with a barrel made by Bar-Sto. 12 gr of Unique & a 180 gr bullet from a .38-40.
Dont have the article in front of me right now, but I do have the issue of the mag with it in.
And the original specs on a 10MM were (Norma) ;
170 gr @ 1350 fps
200 gr @ 1200 fps
From a 5" bbl.
note to tahqua.....WHO are you on GT ?
uncle albert
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My gun safe is LARGER than my first appartment !
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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VN, thanks for the tip on http://www.glockpost.com/forums/index.php. I'm in and the same name there as GT and here.
It's always good to see Freakshow and Big Slick postings. GP is a friendly site and I like that. Doug Edited by tahqua - April/17/2008 at 11:32 |
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Clark
Optics Apprentice Joined: February/13/2004 Location: Near Seattle Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Hand loaded 40 S&W with good case support can make more power than hand loaded 10mm with good case support, because of the large primer pocket and deep extractor groove on the 10mm case head.
Hand loaded 45acp with good case support can make more power than hand loaded 10mm with good case support, because of the large primer pocket and deep extractor groove on the 10mm case head. |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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You are way off on that one. Show me the data. I load .40, 10mm and .45, BTW. The .40 can never, ever be loaded to 10mm velocities. I expect to see stuff like this at Glock Talk in the caliber corner. DC already stated how .40's can be loaded in 1911 magazines. To think that the .40 can be loaded to 10mm velocities otherwise is a fantasy. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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I can load my .308 to be more powerful than a 300 WM. Yup, the secret is in the miracle grow I put in with the powder.
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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I can also load my 10mm to .40 velocities. I use Vicodin.
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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wow a 40 out running a 10mm, even i know better
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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.357Sig 10mm .40 S&W |
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14964 |
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If you really want more powder capacity I have a 45-70 Encore pistol. However if I really feel the need for more gun than a 40 S&W it leaves me thinking M1a
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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Steelbenz
Optics Jedi Knight ROLL TIDE ROLL Joined: January/03/2006 Location: Heart of Dixie Status: Offline Points: 5153 |
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Wes, I was thinking the same thing. If I can't put them down with my 23, I have a .308 that will work just fine. LOL
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"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
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VN350X10
Optics GrassHopper Joined: April/13/2008 Location: McHenry, IL Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Not sure of the need for THAT, but Elmer Keith always pointed out that if you needed more than a heavy loaded .44 Mag (Elmer's loading was 22.0gr of 2400 & a 245/250 gr hardcast bullet. Originally he used 24.0 gr, but in chrono testing saw no velocity advantage, but the felt recoil was heavier)
It was time to get a rifle......a BIG rifle !
uncle albert
.40 S&W.....doesn't this stand for sissies & wimps ? Or is it "Specially for Women"?
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My gun safe is LARGER than my first appartment !
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Take a look at this and I think you will reevaluate a handgun round. I realize with a .44 mag there is a weee bit of difference that with a .40. But it makes a .308 sound like a pretty good idea ore even better yet a 45-70.
This is from Ignatius Piazza's Blog. He is the founder of Front Sight. Pay close attention to the following facts: 1. Range was 20 feet. 2. Three officers involved. 3. One adversary, 18 years old. 4. Officers used M4s with 55 grain and 75 grain .223 ammunition and Glock 22’s with Speer 180 grain Gold Dot ammunition. 5. Adversary used .45 ACP handgun. 6. Trace amounts of marijuana in adversary’s system. 7. 107 rounds fired by two officers with 17 rounds striking adversary (16% hit ratio). 8. Of the 17 hits, 11 created exit wounds. 9. NO HEAD SHOT DELIVERED by officers at range of 20 feet from either their rifles or handguns. 10. Adversary fired 26 rounds and reloaded magazine from a box of loose ammunition. 11. Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes. 12. When adversary was no longer able to return fire, officers still had to “fight” to get him handcuffed. 13. Interesting tattoos on very dedicated adversary. 14. I would add under the FBI’s Lessons Learned
Section that when you do not inflict immediate, incapacitating damage
to your adversary, you often create a “Superman Effect” in your
adversary from the normal physiologic response to significant, but
non-life threatening injury. I experienced this
myself when I broke both arms in an all terrain vehicle accident 20
years ago. I distinctly remember looking at both wrists, twisted and
broken, but remarkably felt NO PAIN. I was so surprised by the lack of
pain that I actually shook the wrists a bit in disbelief! I then
crossed my arms, holding the wrists close to my body for support, and
JOGGED back toward camp for several minutes before the pain began and
then quickly intensified to the point where any movement of my body was
extremely painful. It is during this brief but significant period of NO
PAIN that your adversary can fight you like a “Superman” even though
you may be continuing to deliver hits to his body. WARNING this is very graphic It has autopsy photos of the perp. http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/officer.pdf Edited by supertool73 - August/11/2008 at 12:04 |
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