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Scopes for use in the box

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Optics GrassHopper
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    Posted: November/26/2004 at 11:32
Hey all.  I'm new to the whole scope thing.  I've been using iron sights since I was a kid.  However, I am looking at a possible deployment and I was told a good scope is a must have.  I trust the guy I got that information from.  He said he used a Leupold Mark 4.  I would like some input from the people that know about scopes though.  Any thoughts would be great.   Thanks again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2004 at 13:58
I'm not what one might call a Leupold fan, but the Mark 4 is a superb setup for LR work in a "unfriendly" enviorment. If you know what I mean...

Do you have a budget in mind??
Any certain distances you know you will be shooting??

Welcome to the forum! Watch your 6!!


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Optics GrassHopper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in the box soon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/26/2004 at 22:01

Well... i have to say that in theory what is a budget when we're talking about staying alive.  but in reality i'm sure there is a budget.  but i'll have to take that one step at a time. 

 

well what i'm looking for is something that can be used in low light situations.  i'll prob have a mounted light too, for those closer shots.  i'm looking for something i can use close up and far away.  and something that will allow me see the target readily.  the scopes i used on my dad's ol huntin rifles had a very slim margin for error when you were aquiring a sight picture. 

 

well there ya go.  I was looking at the marine's newly issued scope.  but i've heard thats only good at a distance.  but it does use tridium, NO BATTERIES INCLUDED!   (sorry for the spelling....not my strong suit)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ranburr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2004 at 00:03

ACOG!

 

ranburr

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2004 at 06:36
I thought at first you were wanting to scope a SWS. An M-24 or equivelent. To much eggnog last nite!

If your wanting to scope a M16, then a ACOG would be an excellent choice.

A SN-12 or SN-4 from US Optics would be the heat as well. Expensive as hell, but what's a budget compared to your life, as you say??

They have a list of deals on their website, and have marked certain items down from time to time. I have seen SN-12's and 4's there recently.  

I have an Aimpoint on my AR for awhile and have shot man sized steel targets out to 200 meters with little problems. Could probably go to 300 meters with it.
You have shot out to 300 meters w/ iron sights for rifle qualifacation. Right?

The Aimpoint I have offers no magnifacation and a 4 moa dot.
Very quick target aquisition. It can literally be used at night. Batteries I have in it are still the originals that came with it. Excellent for CQB duty too.

The Aimpoint can be bought for less than $400. I would recommend a LaRue Tactical mount. They are outstanding!! AP and LaRue mount would be  less than  $500.
 
The Aimpoint or Eotech would be a cheap way to go.
ACOG, SN-12, etc. more expensive, but would offer you magnifaction if you felt you needed it.

Lastly, I would go to Snipers Hide or Sniper's Paradise and ask around to see what people that have been there have used or are using. Good intel from those sites. 

God bless. Thank you for your service to our country, Sir. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in the box soon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2004 at 11:08

thanks for the intell cheaptrick.  I'll look into those sites too.  the ACOG that is currenly being used would be great, i know it would work.  but the one disadvantage that it has would be, it is only good at a distance.  no close shots.  but thats what iron sights are for i guess. 

 

i was told the leupold could to both close and far, but its target accqusion is difficult. 

 

and yes i've qualified at 300 meters.  lol but mansized target at 300 meters looks like your trying to shot an ant. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2004 at 11:29
Email sent.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ranburr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2004 at 15:25

Actually, the ACOG works great at close range.  It uses the Biden or Binden or whatever it is called aiming concept.  This alloys you very fast close range shooting and it also allows you to bear down and get the full magnification for long range shooting.  In essence the ACOG gives you the best of both worlds.   

 

ranburr 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in the box soon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2004 at 16:23
Really?  Okay thats news to me.  How does the ACOG work at close range?  If you use a flat top M-16 then you remove your iron sights.  Never using the ACOG makes it difficult to get a feel for its capibilities.  And that being said...is the ACOG available on the open market? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ranburr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2004 at 14:13

Look at SWFAs website, it gives a good description on how the ACOG works and they sell them.

 

ranburr

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redneckbmxer24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2004 at 21:47

ACOG 4x32, not sure the model, but the military model with the sights on top

 

cory

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greentimber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2004 at 15:00

The NSN model does not have BAC and the iron sights are completely useless. If you're going to Iraq, get an Aimpoint Comp M2. If you're going to Afghanistan, get a TA31 with the chevron reticle.  I've been both places & that's what I'd choose for each.

 

 

Good luck & stay safe.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MacDyver60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2004 at 15:51
I am an army Vet , I recommend you wait and see if your armorer will allow you to make any modifications to your weapon.
Some Commanders can be a bit anal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redneckbmxer24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2004 at 16:43

in every case i have seen, you are allowed to provide your own optic, thats why you see all those ACOGS over there, im not sure, but i dont think the US supplies them, but im not positive.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Farris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/04/2004 at 12:08

 

BAC - Bindon Aiming Concept
After many years of searching for and developing improved small arms weapons sights, Glyn Bindon made an amazing discovery. The legendary aiming speed of the Armson O.E.G. can be combined with the accuracy and precision of magnified scopes. What was discovered is that the human brain automatically switches to the best system when you look through the scope with both eyes open. Two major universities have confirmed that anyone with normal vision (over 95% of the population) can learn to use the brain powered zoom in seconds.

 

How the Bindon Aiming Concept Works
Both eyes must be open. Scan from left to right, while continuously scanning the brain will choose the non magnified version (your left eye), as soon as you near your target and stop on it your brain chooses to use the magnified version (your right eye). This gives you an unlimited field of view and makes it very easy to hit multiple targets or moving targets in any lighting conditions. It may sound confusing until you actually look through one, it is very simple and extremely effective.

 

The Nature of Binocular Sighting


Human vision is based upon a binocular (two eyes) presentation of visual evidence to the brain. The word binocular literally means using both eyes at the same time. We most often associate this word with binocular instruments such as field glasses or a binocular microscope. These instruments specifically strive to present the object to be viewed the same way to both eyes.

Vision research material was examined for its assistance to understand the optically aided weapon aiming process. Three major types of optical enhancement were compared. There are strong customer preferences in reticle designs, some simple reticles enhance the speed of target acquisition, others allow for greater precision in a given time limit.


The simple substitution of a bright red dot for the usual cross-hairs makes it very easy to keep both eyes open. Just as in the Single point or Armson O.E.G. sighting, the brain merges the two images. During dynamic movement, the scene through the telescope blurs because the image moves more rapidly due to magnification. The one eye sees the bright dot against the blurred target scene, so the brain picks the scene from the unaided eye. The shooter swings the weapon toward the target while perceiving the dot indicating where the weapon is pointed. As soon as the weapon begins to become steady in the target area, the brain switches to the magnified view.

A long search was made to try to combine the speed and non-battery features of the Singlepoint or Armson with the precision of the telescopic system. This discovery was made several years ago. Trijicon has sponsored research in the field of human vision to better understand this generic phenomenon. Although the study concentrated on the Armson O.E.G., some aspects are applicable also to the Bindon Aiming Concept.

 

 

 

Watch the BAC Demo

BAC Flash Demo (5MB)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Farris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/04/2004 at 12:40

Another excellent choice is the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T 1-3x14.  It was developed for modern warfare where you have to engage targets inside a building then two blocks away while going to the next building.  The CQ/T is like an Aimpoint or EOTech when you set it to 1x (clearing buildings) then it works like an ACOG on 3x (long range)...it is the best of both worlds.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in the box soon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2004 at 19:32

The ACOG and the Leupold were the two sights that looked the most promising.  Thanks everyone for your help.  I'll have to decide soon..as my ticket will probably come soon. 

 

How does the Leupold on 1x work for aquiring sight picture?  I would think that would be difficult in a stressful environment like that.  Also..not liking the reliance on batteries. Thats where the ACOG wins hands down.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/07/2004 at 02:36
I would stay on the ACOG or Aimpoint.

As Pat Roger's would say" The Aimpoint rules under 100 meters."
Pat also tells of a "excellent Marine" who is having great success in the box with a ACOG.

Stay safe, Brother. God bless. Please inform us what you end up with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Farris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/08/2004 at 12:13

1x is the same as no magnification, so the Leupold CQ/T on 1x works just like an Aimpoint or EOTech (super fast).  The reticle is still there if the battery dies.  One AA battery powers the Mark 4 CQ/T for up to 600+ hours at medium setting

CQ/T Battery

 

 

In addition to the circle dot reticle being extremely fast you can also use it to range.

 

Range Estimating with the Circle Dot Reticle
Estimating range using the Circle Dot reticle is simple. Place the target inside the circle of the reticle. At 3x the diameter equates to 6 feet in height at 100 yards. At 200 yards, 6 feet is measured from the dot to the edge of the circle.

 

Dot Size: 3 MOA at 3x, 9 MOA at 1x.

 

Circle Size: Edge to edge, the subtension of the circle is 18 inches at 25 yards, or 6 feet at 100 yards when set on 3x. From the center of the dot to the edge of the circle, the subtension is 6 feet at 200 yards when set on 3x.

 

Circle Line: The width of the line creating the circle is large enough to be easily visible, but thin enough so as not to obliterate an 18-inch object at 500 yards when set on 3x.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/08/2004 at 18:55

Check out EoTech,  They are awsome in low light shooting. And i think some models have a setting for using night vision goggles.

 

 

 

      Good luck over there.God Bless and thank you

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