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jrmoore7138
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/04/2007 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: February/24/2008 at 19:45 |
While in a gun shop droping my new Rem 700, and scope for boresighting, a fellow customer asked me if I had broke-in the barrel yet. Before I could find out what he was referring to, he received a phone call and had to leave. The young gun in the gun shop did not know what the guy was referring to. Neither do I. Can one of you guys help me out on this? Thanks. John |
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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When a barrel is manufactured, the inside surface of the bore is often left with small mill-marks and scratches from the machining processes. These catch tiny particles of the bullet jacket as it passes through the bore, accumulating progressively until accuracy is diminished. Many shooters believe that a way to smooth these marks out early in the barrel's career is to go through a cleaning regimen beginning with a very clean barrel.
One shot is fired, the barrel cleaned thoroughly, another shot, followed again by a good cleaning etc for perhaps ten or twenty cycles. Then five shots between cleanings for ten cycles or whatever. There are as many regimens as there are shooters. The idea is to clean before letting much fouling takes place until the barrel is "broken-in", or smoothed out.
There is a fair amount of debate as to it's effectiveness, etc.
I personally prefer to fire-lap. Edited by RONK - February/24/2008 at 20:24 |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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I recently used a David Tubbs final finish kit in my .308. I don't know that it will improve my accuracy as my gun was already shooting .5 MOA. But it made my gun much much easier to clean and copper and powder fouling has been greatly diminished.
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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Yeah, that's what I use. It makes the bore clean up much easier. In some cases it significantly reduced velocity with a given handload, and I was able to increase it back up beyond where it had originally been, before reaching early signs of high pressure. That indicates to me that the bullet passes through the bore much more smoothly upon firing, after being fire-lapped with the Tubb system. YMMV... |
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SamC
Optics Professional Joined: October/01/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 902 |
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I just bought a box of David Tubb's "Final Finish" and a box of his "Final Finish TMS" ammo to help break in my Kimber Montana. I'll try it as soon as the weather warms a bit.
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RONK
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: April/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3199 |
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If you have access to a chronograph, I'd be real interested in seeing what you would get for velocities from the same lot of ammo before and after lapping your rifle's bore.
I bet you would, too!
Just a thought...
Edited to add; since it's a Kimber, the bore is probably pretty good from the factory, but it would still be an interesting test. What is it chambered for? Edited by RONK - February/24/2008 at 22:03 |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Does Kimber hand lap their barrels? Just curious, as per my research the barrels that have been hand lapped don't benefit near as much as production barrels from barrel break in procedures. Some say like Gale McMillian that these hand lapped barrels don't need break in at all.
The thing that is so confusing about barrel break in is all the custom barrel makers disagree on how to break in a barrel. You go to one of their websites and they say this and go to another maker and it is entirely different. Some say not to use ammonia type copper removers while Lijia says they have never seen any evidence of damage coming to a barrel it when it is left in them for long amounts of time. So really all you can do is pick someones way and hope it is the best approach. |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
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jrmoore7138
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/04/2007 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Thanks guys. I appreciate all the comments / help. John
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SamC
Optics Professional Joined: October/01/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 902 |
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RONK, It's chambered in 30 06 and no I do not have a chronograph but maybe someone in my club does, I'll let you know. supertool 173 to the best of my knowledge Kimber does not hand lap their barrels. Regarding what to use and how to break the barrel in, I think I'm going to follow Tubbs' method on his website.
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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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No, Kimber doesn't hand lap their barrels. Hand lapping is too time consuming and costly for a high volume rifle manufacturer to use. Hand lapping is pretty much confined to match grade barrels that must air gage within 0.0002" TIR for the entire bore.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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ssf467
Optics GrassHopper Joined: January/16/2008 Location: Junction Status: Offline Points: 44 |
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You know my M24 was not broken in and was a sub minute of angle machine
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Dolphin
Optics Master Joined: October/05/2006 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1795 |
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Does everybody here go through an extensive break in period with every rifle they purchase? Just curious.
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Bigdaddy0381
MODERATOR Georgia peach Joined: February/27/2007 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 13682 |
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I have on some and I haven't on some. If I was a match shooter I might could tell if it helped or not but with the shooting and hunting I do it hasn't helped or hurt ether way.
I took a rifle out of the box shoot 100 thru it cleaned it and shoot 100 more and haven't cleaned it since.
I took a rifle shot one cleaned x 20
shot 2 cleaned x10
shot 5 cleaned x4
then went to normal shooting.
Both rifles shoot great groups and put game to sleep.
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P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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I think it will help more with the copper and powder fouling than anything. If you can smooth out some of the tool marks in the barrel, then copper won't get caught up on those marks as bad which leads to less cleaning.
I did not break mine in initially either and it shot great, but it was a pain to clean. Once I finally got it clean and then ran the Tubbs system through it, it cleans a whole lot easier now. |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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I've gone full circle on this. I used to not do anything to "break in" a new barrel except just go out and shoot it. Then, based on all the reports about the "need" to break in barrels, I started doing it. I can't say that it did anything except take up extra time and bore solvent. Now, I do a sort of "mini break-in" where I will clean my barrel more frequently at first until it's had about 50 rounds fired through it. Generally, I'll clean after every shot for the first 5 shots, and thereafter after every 5 shots until I've fired about 50 rounds total. Then, I just clean when I feel guilty. With a custom match barrel, I don't do any specific break-in, because these barrels have already been hand lapped.
This is a really controversial topic. There are several barrel manufacturers that claim using a break-in procedure does nothing more than waste time and energy. My own take on it is I don't think it hurts anything, and I do believe it may help smooth out a rough factory barrel with a moderate amount of tool marks to prevent excessive fouling early in its life. I also believe that fire lapping (i.e. the Tubbs kit) can be beneficial in some cases, though I've never used it personally. I don't believe that if you stray away from some strict "clean after each round for X number of shots" followed by some incremental cleaning frequency that it will ruin the potential accuracy of your barrel, though. I think there are many rituals that we shooters often become obsessed with performing that are passed from person to person which sound logical, but seldom have any proven basis of fact.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Roy Finn
MODERATOR Steiner Junkie Joined: April/05/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4856 |
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The biggest advantage to "breaking in a barrel" is ease of cleaning. I don't recall anyonr stating it would make a accurate barrel any more accurate.
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Bigdaddy0381
MODERATOR Georgia peach Joined: February/27/2007 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 13682 |
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If I get a heavily fouled barrel in the shop I take a cleaning rod and put 0000 steel wool and wrap it around the brush tightly and then take 1000 grit past and wipe it all over the steel wool and lap it about 15 or 20 passes and then clean with mineral spirits and blow it dry with air and see if it gets the fouling out. This also helps in smoothing the boar out. I have had more than a few people that bring me there guns for work tell me that it makes it shoot like new. Doing this it will NOT hurt anything if don't right. It dose take allot of work to make a barrel as smooth as I like it but I'm doing it for the customer and not me. That’s what keeps them coming back time after time. I do about 200 full cleanings a month. every part that will come off a gun from barrel to trigger group to ejector spring get cleaned with spirits and then blown dry, Polished and then lightly oiled and put back together. But when I tell people it will be 75$ for a gun cleaning they tend to freak out until they see me clean there’s. I have even taken pictures of one’s I have cleaned so people will see how much time and effort goes into gun maintenance. |
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P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 |
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mwyates
Optics Master Joined: June/15/2004 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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I did it once and that was enough for me. I shoot until accuracy suffers, then I clean. Several of my rifles need a fouling shot anyway, so I don't keep my main rifles clean in between shooting.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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That has been one of the claims made about barrel break-in. If a barrel's bore is smoother up to a point, it would pick up less jacket material and foul less than a rough bore, which can make the rifle group more consistently. I've also heard that tendency to foul has more to do with the orientation of the tool marks -- whether they are radial, as the marks would be left over from gundrilling and reaming, vs. parallel with the c/l of the bore, as they would be after lapping. Then, there are those such as the Wiseman barrel people who say a bore that is TOO smooth will foul easily as well.
I personally believe a small amount of fouling doesn't hurt accuracy at all, and in fact, may actually help accuracy because it "conditions" the bore by filling in some of the microscopic imperfections in the bore with a very thin layer of copper, evening out the bore surface.
There are seemingly as many different theories on this topic as there are shooters.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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They are having this discussion again over at
snipersparadise and Vern Harrison made this comment when people brought
up the Gale McMillan opinions of barrel break in. (that it is a waste of time and barrels makers came up with this to get people to wear out their barrels faster so they could sell more) Vern (Flea) owns Central
Virginia Tactical a sniper training school and has been a precision
marksman pretty much his whole life. What he says here makes a lot of
sense to me and has made me look into the whole barrel break in a lot more.
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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