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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 15:29
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you have to adjust it what else do you wanna know?
ever heard of murphy's law? everything that can go wrong will all at the same time, and more than likely it will be when the biggest buck you'll ever see in your life steps out in front of you. yes you could use iron sights, but im pretty sure that a scope is going to provide greater accuracy as well as greater confidence levels over iron sights.


Edited by pyro6999 - August/17/2008 at 15:31
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

you have to adjust it what else do you wanna know?

If you read the above, you know you don't have to adjust it on the lower powers.
Quote ever heard of murphy's law? everything that can go wrong will all at the same time, and more than likely it will be when the biggest buck you'll ever see in your life steps out in front of you.

If you can't keep your variable off the highest powers when it shouldn't be, you don't need a sidefocus to mess you up.  This argument could be made against using any variable scope for hunting in general.  If your 3-9 is on 9X and something jumps in front of you and all you can see is fur you'll be SOL even without a SF.  Are you also against using all variable scopes?


Edited by Jon A - August/17/2008 at 15:53
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

you have to adjust it what else do you wanna know?
ever heard of murphy's law? everything that can go wrong will all at the same time, and more than likely it will be when the biggest buck you'll ever see in your life steps out in front of you. yes you could use iron sights, but im pretty sure that a scope is going to provide greater accuracy as well as greater confidence levels over iron sights.
 
  Respectfully I disagree with your first sentence.   Leaving my parallax adjustment at 100 yards I don't adjust anything....ever....unless I want to.   Tell me......are we talking about a scope that you have to make adjustments with each power adjustment that is made?  If that is the case then I am in total agreement with you. 
 
 I also disagree with the second statement.  Because a scope has additional internal lenses for optional magnification changes doesn't make it a terrible option over a fixed power scope does it?  If we always applied the fear of murphy's law to everything we might still be chunking speers or as I said.....using iron sights.  Any scope can fail at any time.  Today we have side parallax and AO adjustments available as well as multizero features and 4,6 and 6.5x erector tubes instead of the traditional 3x tubes.  All of that can't be bad for a hunting situation.  If you don't want to touch the side focus mechanism then don't.   Keep it on 3-9 power and forget about it.....unless you really need it of course.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 15:55
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while it is true that variables can get one in trouble, if you don have ao/sf to worry about on top of it, thats one less thing to screw with when its -30 at last light and that monster is within 50 yds. im sorry guys but you wont sell me on the need for s/f for hunting purposes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 16:08
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Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

So, if you kept your scope down to normal hunting magnifications--like 4X or 6X--you can more or less be fine with the parallax set at 100 or 150 yards?

Yes.
Originally posted by COLOelkman COLOelkman wrote:

So to sum issue as I understand, if you had an SF scope, like 4 x 16, and you set the focus around 100-150 yds, and keep the power lower than say 9, I'm understanding that you'd not have to refocus on anything within the first 200 yds perhaps?

9X is pushing it, depending upon the exact model of scope.  With most SF scopes, anything much over 6X or so and you begin to notice a reduction in depth of field (vs. a scope without SF), so even at 9X you may "need" to focus.  But this will depend upon the scope--with my S&B 3-12 I could set it on 9X, parallax to 150 and go hunting and make any shot from 15yds to infinity easily, things only getting a bit blurry below 25 yds--but still usable.  IIRC the same could be said for the 3-18 IOR I had, but if I remember correctly the 4-14 IOR was less forgiving and would have needed to be on a lower power. 

Some scopes  are certainly more touchy about it that others.  I think many get a bad taste in their mouth using SF on a cheaper scope where it doesn't work very well (while the same brand of cheap scope without it may be OK) and think it causes more problems than it does on better scopes.

But yeah, that's the general idea.  Any time you'd have a variable set to a fairly low power, it's not a worry.  It's only when you want to crank it up and zoom in on something you need to worry about it.
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here is some other things to think about
 
The main reasons I wouldn't want SF on a big game hunting scope are:
1.  I don't want more than 10 or maybe 12X on the high end, to keep a reasonable FOV on the low end.
2.  I don't want to spend the extra $ on something I really don't need.  I'd rather just spend the extra $ on better optics.
3.  Even if you keep the scope set at low power and even if you keep the SF adjusted to 100 yards as your default "carry" adjustment, sooner or later, you're gonna forget to adjust it back to 100 yds before you go hunting the next time or you'll accidentally brush the rifle up against something and it will rotate the knob without your knowledge. say you hunt with horses, and place your rifle in a scabbard, it could get bumped off adjustment and you wouldnt ever know it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 16:17
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

im sorry guys but you wont sell me on the need for s/f for hunting purposes.

Who exactly is trying to do that?
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

I agree more power isn't needed in this case or even most cases for big game,

I don't need it, I like it.  I prefer it.  It's not brain surgery--the level of competence required to successfully use it in the field is quite low.  Anybody who wants to, can pretty easily.

For those who don't want to, that's fine.  But because you don't want to does not make an argument that nobody else can.
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if  all i ever did was punch paper and pdogs im sure i would look at this totally differently, but i hunt big game, elk, and deer for the most part, when you hunt those animals closer is better especially elk, you want them to die relatively quickly after the first shot is fired, and  unless you pull of a head shot at 400yds, your chances decrease with every yard between you and the target that your going to get a perfect hit. so really im saying if you think you need the extra power fine, but im telling you at 400 yds an  elk or a deer still looks fairly big  in a scope even at 6x im trying to save somebody from losing the trophy of a lifetime because of something that was completely avoidable.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 18:40
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

The main reasons I wouldn't want SF on a big game hunting scope are:

And whatever you want is fine.  Nobody can argue that you're wrong about that.  Where you go wrong is:
Quote 3.  Even if you keep the scope set at low power and even if you keep the SF adjusted to 100 yards as your default "carry" adjustment, sooner or later, you're gonna forget to adjust it back to 100 yds before you go hunting the next time or you'll accidentally brush the rifle up against something and it will rotate the knob without your knowledge.

Now you're no longer talking about what you want, but predicting what will happen to me.  You are not qualified to predict what will happen to me. 
Quote say you hunt with horses, and place your rifle in a scabbard, it could get bumped off adjustment and you wouldnt ever know it.

I guess I had never thought of that.  Oh wait, yes I have:



The stiffness of the SF knob varies from brand to brand.  Some can, in fact, move when in the scabbard.  But for the umpteenth time, when the scope is set to a low power it does not matter.  I've never seen the power ring on a scope turn in a scabbard.
Quote if  all i ever did was punch paper and pdogs

Now you're starting to sound like somebody else I know.  If you start pushing the advantages of variable eye relief and that "eyeboxes" any smaller than a Leupold are only good for stand hunting, I'll really be worried.  Hint, in the pic above I wasn't going after pdogs and didn't find any paper to punch on the mountain.

I guess if all my shots were under 100 yds too, I might not understand either.  I wouldn't need a SF, that's for sure.  I'd probably slap on my Eotech and be done with it.   Though I make it a point to try and avoid arguing on subjects about which I know little.
Quote your chances decrease with every yard between you and the target that your going to get a perfect hit.

Nonsense.  All situations are not equal.  A close shot of a quickly moving animal through the timber can be much more difficult than a longer shot on a stationary animal that hasn't yet detected you and isn't running away.  One can argue the closer you are the more likely you will have already scared the bejesus out of them and be faced with a moving animal.  I try and prepare as best I can for both situations, but will pass on most shots running animals, even if they're close.
Quote you want them to die relatively quickly after the first shot is fired, and  unless you pull of a head shot at 400yds,

Do you really think elk don't die quickly when shot beyond 100 yds unless you hit them in the head?  Upon what do you base this?
Quote im trying to save somebody from losing the trophy of a lifetime because of something that was completely avoidable.

And that goal is commendable.  We all thank you for it. 

I will caution, however, that when you do so based upon incorrect information and lack of experience in the subject matter, it can come across more as being a bit narrowminded, beating the drum for everybody doing something your way even if their application and personal preferences are quite different from yours.


Edited by Jon A - August/17/2008 at 18:45
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First of all it is not a focus knob, it appears that it is focusing the image in your scope, but it is actually putting your reticle on the same image plane as the target.  If you have ever done long range shooting you can use the parallax to see the mirage at different distances between you and the target.  Sometimes by turing the knob back and forth you can see the mirage blowing 3 or 4 different directions at different points between you and the target.  Because as you turn the knob your scope image is actually getting on the same plane of the image at different distances.   So don't get this confused with the focus knob that is on the eye piece that is actually focusing your reticle to your eye. They are two completely different things and if you are going to buy a scope that uses a parallax adjustment it is important to know how it works and what it is you are actually doing as you are turning it.  In most cases they have yardage marks on them, but in most cases those are not going to be correct and you will just have to turn it until your scope image in on the same plane as your target.  It will appear to come into better focus when that happens. 
Here is Chris's explantion of what parallax really is. 
Quote Parallax
Parallax is essentially an optical illusion.  Parallax presents itself as the apparent movement of the reticle, in relation to the target, when your eye moves off center of the sight picture (exit pupil) or in more extreme cases it appears as an out of focus image. It indicates that the scope is either out of focus or more specifically the image of the target is not occurring on the same focal plane as the reticle. Maximum parallax occurs when your eye is at the very edge of the sight picture (exit pupil). Even when parallax is adjusted for a designated distance, there is an inadvertent error at other distances.  Most brands of scopes that do not have a parallax adjustment are pre-set at the factory to be parallax free at or around 100 yards; rim fire and shotgun scopes are set at or around 50 yards.  Most scopes of 11x or more have a parallax adjustment because parallax worsens at higher magnifications.  Generally speaking parallax adjustment is not required for hunting situations and is primarily a feature used and desired by target shooters.  A 4x hunting scope focused for 150 yards has a maximum error of only 8/10ths of an inch at 500 yards.  At short distances, the parallax effect does not affect accuracy. Using the same 4x scope at 100 yards, the maximum error is less than 2/10ths of an inch. It is also good to remember that, as long you are sighting straight through the middle of the scope, or close to it, parallax will have virtually no effect on accuracy in a hunting situation.


My opinion on this is adjusting the parallax is not going to be necessary for 99% of big game hunting situations.  The higher the scope power and the farther the distance to the target is going to increase the parallax error in your scope.  Even a scope without a parallax adjustment is going to suffer from this at farther distances.  My understanding is a 3-9x scope is going to have a fixed parallax probably somewhere between 100 and 200 yards.  So you start shooting at distances beyond that and you will start to suffer from parallax error and the farther out you get the greater the error will be.  SO if you are regulally shooting distance beyond the set parallax in a given scope it would be a good idea to get a scope with a parallax adjustment.  

Any scope that is designed to be used at beyond about 200 yards and used for precision shooting should have a parallax adjustment.  But if you are shooting at an Elk at 300 or 4 or even 500 yards I don't think if is going to have enough effect on the poi to have to worry about it.  Because they are a pretty large target.  But if you are off on your windage call and have a rather large parallax error it could screw up your shot or even cause a miss. 

You will really start to see the parallax error once you get beyond about 400 yards and are using the higher powers in a scope.  That is another reason I don't like to shoot with much over 10x or 12x even at 1000 yards it is just more opportunity introduced into the equation for you to miss the target. 

So like I said if you really believe you are going to be shooting at distances beyond 400 yards or so it could be beneficial to have a scope with a parallax adjustment.  But most big game hunting situations are not going to call for shots like that for a number or reasons. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 19:03
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Edited by Ed Connelly - August/17/2008 at 19:14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 19:04
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Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

The main reasons I wouldn't want SF on a big game hunting scope are:

And whatever you want is fine.  Nobody can argue that you're wrong about that.  Where you go wrong is:
Quote 3.  Even if you keep the scope set at low power and even if you keep the SF adjusted to 100 yards as your default "carry" adjustment, sooner or later, you're gonna forget to adjust it back to 100 yds before you go hunting the next time or you'll accidentally brush the rifle up against something and it will rotate the knob without your knowledge.

Now you're no longer talking about what you want, but predicting what will happen to me.  You are not qualified to predict what will happen to me. 
Quote say you hunt with horses, and place your rifle in a scabbard, it could get bumped off adjustment and you wouldnt ever know it.

I guess I had never thought of that.  Oh wait, yes I have:



The stiffness of the SF knob varies from brand to brand.  Some can, in fact, move when in the scabbard.  But for the umpteenth time, when the scope is set to a low power it does not matter.  I've never seen the power ring on a scope turn in a scabbard.
Quote if  all i ever did was punch paper and pdogs

Now you're starting to sound like somebody else I know.  If you start pushing the advantages of variable eye relief and that "eyeboxes" any smaller than a Leupold are only good for stand hunting, I'll really be worried.  Hint, in the pic above I wasn't going after pdogs and didn't find any paper to punch on the mountain.

I guess if all my shots were under 100 yds too, I might not understand either.  I wouldn't need a SF, that's for sure.  I'd probably slap on my Eotech and be done with it.   Though I make it a point to try and avoid arguing on subjects about which I know little.
Quote your chances decrease with every yard between you and the target that your going to get a perfect hit.

Nonsense.  All situations are not equal.  A close shot of a quickly moving animal through the timber can be much more difficult than a longer shot on a stationary animal that hasn't yet detected you and isn't running away.  One can argue the closer you are the more likely you will have already scared the bejesus out of them and be faced with a moving animal.  I try and prepare as best I can for both situations, but will pass on most shots running animals, even if they're close.
Quote you want them to die relatively quickly after the first shot is fired, and  unless you pull of a head shot at 400yds,

Do you really think elk don't die quickly when shot beyond 100 yds unless you hit them in the head?  Upon what do you base this?
Quote im trying to save somebody from losing the trophy of a lifetime because of something that was completely avoidable.

And that goal is commendable.  We all thank you for it. 

I will caution, however, that when you do so based upon incorrect information and lack of experience in the subject matter, it can come across more as being a bit narrowminded, beating the drum for everybody doing something your way even if their application and personal preferences are quite different from yours.
i think your way over reading this, im not saying you arent a hunter or anything else like that im saying that if I was into paper punching etc i would have a use for sf scopes.
now i can tell that you must do a little hunting, but if you bank on head shots for elk you must shoot a lot of cows. while some close shots may be tougher than some distance shots, but yes closer shots have better percentages of kills cant deny that. ive been around the mountain a time or two so you are barking up the wrong tree friend.
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 nice horse
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/17/2008 at 19:13
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if you bank on head shots for elk you must shoot a lot of cows.

You misunderstood the point.  The point was you don't need to bank on headshots.  I don't know why you think you do.

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Everyone one has their choices in maximum powers for big game rifles. I myself used a fixed 4X on mule deer hunts for years. I shot them at under 50 yards and well over 300. All my big game rifles have variables these days. The most magnification is 12X and that particular Burris Signature has AO. I have never adjusted it outside of the 150 yard setting, even at the range.
If you want a 16X on the high end for elk, most are going to have the AO, anyway. No big deal.
I don't think you will be underscoped with a 2.5-10/3-9 class scope by any means. A lot of those don't have AO.
If you have a 150 yard or similar parallax setting on a big game rifle, it doesn't mean a whole lot regarding minute of elk at any reasonable range. Minute of muley for that matter.


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Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

if you bank on head shots for elk you must shoot a lot of cows.

You misunderstood the point.  The point was you don't need to bank on headshots.  I don't know why you think you do.



Let's not deviate too much from the elk hunter from CO's original post.
Headshots are risky business and don't belong in this thread. I will gladly butt heads on this elsewhere, thoughWink.
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i think i will bow out of this and just take it as we can disagree on this and chalk it up as nothing else, i dont want to turn this place into something its not. so with all due respect to swfa and chris and maybe  more importantly all the ot members i will call a truce here and just agree to disagree on this topic, besides i dont think we have helped the original poster with our arguements so colo im sorry we pulled your thread away from what it was intended. hope we helped with the earlier stuff.
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Actually, I think it's discussions like this that probably help people the most.
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i think i will bow out of this and just take it as we can disagree on this and chalk it up as nothing else, i dont want to turn this place into something its not. so with all due respect to swfa and chris and maybe  more importantly all the ot members i will call a truce here and just agree to disagree on this topic, besides i dont think we have helped the original poster with our arguements so colo im sorry we pulled your thread away from what it was intended. hope we helped with the earlier stuff.
 
 This poster also went into another such forum and posted the same question with no responses to his question.  This venue is obviously full of opinions and sometimes contrasting opinions.  Nothing wrong with that.  I respect pyro's point of view but don't embrace it.  But heck......I couldn't be married if I couldn't deal with that situation.  This was a good thread.  I think we all learned a little bit.
 
 Doug
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 All I want to know is who's horse is that ?  I'm a head shot man ... but you'll NEVER  get head shots all the time ! This statement lost me    " I assume you are saying you always have to refocus?  If so, it leaves me a bit baffled regarding Nikon scopes."  I   NEVER  have to always refocus on my NIKON  . Whacko

Edited by mercenary1947 - August/18/2008 at 08:16
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Originally posted by mercenary1947 mercenary1947 wrote:

 All I want to know is who's horse is that ? 

Technically, my mom's.  Want a good mountain horse?  Absaroka Tennessee Walkers.
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Quick, which movie... "me, I like a mule." ??????

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Not to beat a dead horse, but I had forgotten I took a picture specifically to illustrate the point to people a while ago.  This is the IOR 3-18 FFP with Side Focus, set on 3X:



The near roof is a whopping 11 yards away. The big tree is a mile.  Point, shoot.  Point shoot.
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Thanks for all the posts everyone.  This is certainly a great board compared to others and I did learn about what I was interested in from both sides.  As such, I'm not totally conviced which way I'll go as I just don't have the experience of looking at elk in a decent scope @ 400 yds.  I have heard from several though that they think that an experienced shooter would not have a problem shooting that distance with a 9X.  The norm for me is to sneak up on something rather than take the long shot so I'm not sure I'd really change what comes naturally to me.  I'll keep watching the board though as there are lots of good posts!
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Originally posted by COLOelkman COLOelkman wrote:

Thanks for all the posts everyone.  This is certainly a great board compared to others and I did learn about what I was interested in from both sides.  As such, I'm not totally conviced which way I'll go as I just don't have the experience of looking at elk in a decent scope @ 400 yds.  I have heard from several though that they think that an experienced shooter would not have a problem shooting that distance with a 9X.  The norm for me is to sneak up on something rather than take the long shot so I'm not sure I'd really change what comes naturally to me.  I'll keep watching the board though as there are lots of good posts!
that sneak up close is my prefered method also, but sometimes with elk hunting you take lemons and make lemonade and that far off shot sometimes is all you will get.
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