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First ever Optic selection, new SCAR 17

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 10:12
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Other than a cheep scope on tube fed .22 cal rifle I purchased when I turned 18 I have never used any Red Dot Sight or Scope. I have always had good results with Iron Sights. Now at 50 plus a few, I am starting to feel like I should get with the times and purchase an Optic of some sort.

I just picked up a SCAR 17 (.308) and think that I would like to put something on it for sighting. I'm torn between an Aimpoint Red Dot, ACOG or a more typical long tube scope. I guess I am looking for the Jack of all Trades device, good for close and fast and able to make those longer shots with precision. 

Not knowing much at all about optics I really don't know where to start looking or what to consider. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 11:06
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I'd take a good look at what's available in the 1-4, 1-6 or similar ranges (there are less expensive, lighter options starting in 1.5 or 2). I chose to go with the pending SS 1-6 for my .308 AR build.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 11:53
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Have to agree.  The SS 1-4 is a great scope it is a true 1X and can be used just like a red dot but you also can dial up to 4X to make precise shots if needed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 12:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 14:21
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I am not adverse to paying for a good quality scope. Thank you for the suggestions. 

More than anything else I want to and need to understand what the difference is between, for example one of the scopes linked above and something like this http://swfa.com/Leupold-125-4x20-VX-R-Patrol-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P49444.aspx

I just don't know anything about scopes and I don't want to just think that if I spend more I will get something good. I am trying to learn.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 14:49
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SWFA 1-4 or 1-6X FTW.  4 oz differance.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/06/2012 at 15:25
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Leupold Patrol's are good scopes.  They are not the best by far, but they are a good quality mid range scope.  I think one of those would serve you well.

I am a big fan of the SS 1-4x.  It think that is my favorite scope I own. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/07/2012 at 07:02
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I almost linked some Leupolds, but there were just so many options I didn't know where to start.
I also knew somebody would recommend one eventually.
I also think the scopes I linked are better values, but thats a different discussion.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/07/2012 at 22:36
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I've owned both ACOG & Aimpoint,the ACOG is the better of the two espcially if you want to shoot out past 100yds.My eyes are to old for red dots so I switched over to IOR Valdada 1.5-8x26.It is a great jack of all trade scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/08/2012 at 11:29
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Blaster, please define "longer shots" from your original post.  Also, at what are you shooting and from what position(s)?

With the information presented thus far, I'd have to agree that a good 1-4 or 1-6X would be a solid choice.  

I've spent a little time behind a Scar-H and liked it, nice gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/08/2012 at 23:48
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IMHO you are going to have problems with many scopes on the SCAR 17.
I know this because mine has done in several, look at Leupold's and Nightforce..haven't killed those yet.
Zeiss and Swaro have died as has a Weaver Tactical.
The ACOG will die also and so can the Aimpoint.
The SCAR 17 has a odd recoil impulse, moves forward first then back like a air rifle but much harder.
Leupold and Nightforce both seem to hold up fairly well, nothing is perfect but anything else seems to die within 250+ rounds.
I will be sending my Swaro in for repair and my Zeiss and have learned a valuable lesson that I am passing on to you.
The SCAR 17 is a great gun, just hard on anything optical that isn't built in a certain manner.
I am using a Nightforce 2.5x10 in Nightforce mounts and am thinking of switching to LaRue...along with the scope you will need a quality mount.
Best of luck.
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2012 at 11:55
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Blaster3094 -  I just went through the same thing as you. At 44yrs  I purchased my 1st rifle -Rainier Arms RUC-  after much research. After shooting irons for a year decided to research an optic. At 1st i was going to buy a Zeiss 3-9x SFP, then an ACOG , then an EOTECH , then an AIMPOINT - but decided that a 1-4x or 1-6x FFP would fit my needs  much better. I am currently on the list for the SWFA 1-6x  which I can use for target shooting , 3 gun & hunting .  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2012 at 22:04
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Blaster, please define "longer shots" from your original post.  Also, at what are you shooting and from what position(s)?

With the information presented thus far, I'd have to agree that a good 1-4 or 1-6X would be a solid choice.  

I've spent a little time behind a Scar-H and liked it, nice gun.

I think I left my initial description ambiguous because I really don't know myself. 

Living in Connecticut has its limitations when it comes to the distance one can shoot. Without joining a club with a 400 yard range on the other side of the state I will be limited to 200 yards. 

I realize I have not purchased an ultra accurate bolt gun but I'm sure that with some magnification I can do better at 100 or 200. I purchased the SCAR 17 because I like the design and for a long time now I've wanted something bigger than 5.56x45.

 About a year ago Connecticut was trying to pass a magazine ban and the legislature was looking to outlaw anything greater than 10 rounds with no grandfather clause. At the time I was thinking about another AR15 type weapon, then the idea hit me that if I was going to be limited to ten they were going to be ten Hard Hitting rounds. The attempted ban got squelched by an overwhelming turnout at the public hearings but the thought always stuck with me.

So as I alluded to (the hard hitting part) above I have some underlying SHTF motivation behind the SCAR acquisition. I'm a bit of a training junkie, but my focus has primarily been pistol. I could see myself taking the SCAR to a carbine class and using it part of the time. Use like that would preclude installing a high power optic unless I added offset irons or Red Dot. 

Realistically I believe my 99+% of my needs will fall with in 200 yards but none including me wants to be limited. I have friends with Aimpoints and Eotechs and I've tried them and haven't been impressed. Maybe if I got used to one it would make me faster but I suffered no deficit in a number of carbine classes with my iron sighted AR. 

At 53 I have experienced a long run of good eyesight. Over the last two years Presbyopia has slowly crept up on me. I'm still doing fine at pistol sight distances but recently spending some time behind the irons on a Ruger 10/22 teaching my 11-year old I can tell that I'm not the eagle eye I once was. Still I will learn and zero the SCAR with the irons for the time being.

I have to say the SS 1-4x does sound intriguing and I'm wondering about the 1-6x. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2012 at 22:45
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I have a SS 1-4x on an ar-15 and think it is perfect. If i were in your shoes i would get a 1-6x. With a 308 round that extra 2x could be very handy. The ior 1.5-8x would be a good choice as well. However having owned 7 or so IORs overall i think the SS line are better scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/09/2012 at 23:42
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As an actual SCAR 17 user, again I want you to be aware of the problems the US military has had and others have had when it comes to putting optics on the weapon.
The Leupold military/police scopes work and the Nightforce work, everything else so far seems to crap out.
I have a Swaro Z6, a Zeiss Victory and a Weaver Tactical that have died, my Nightforce 2.5x10 just keeps working and others that I have talked to have been able to run their Nightforce optics.
Reports are that US gov operators have broken ACOG's, Aimpoints and S&B's, French have broken Hensoldt, Kahles, Swaro and Zeiss.
The gun is great, smooth and accurate but it eats anything but the Leupold military/police and Nightforce.
I know that people have their favorite optics but so far they have failed or are unproven.
This is called a "clue".
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/10/2012 at 07:47
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Any links to these reports of them breaking?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/10/2012 at 18:08
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Check Lightfighter or even better talk to someone who runs one.
I run one and know others who do, I have also talked to an individual in the French Army (an officer in their "Marine" which is their overseas intervention force).
The US gov is/was attempting to field not only the SCAR 17 but also the SCAR 20 and the problems have been reported.
If you don't believe me, take your own SCAR 17 and shot it with various optics and see how they work...that would make YOU an expert...especially when you had to send them in for repair.
I know this is a new concept for the internet...someone with actual experience reporting on a problem.
My LaRue PredtAR doesn't break glass nor does my brothers AR-10 or a friends LMT.
I am trying to help others in not making the same mistakes I did, my intent is not to rustle feathers or gore ox's but to report on my experience and the experiences of others.
Having two high end scopes and one mid value scope break is not coincidence.
Like I said, if you don't believe me, get your own SCAR 17, shot it with your chosen glass and then report back on the results.
Thanks
Art

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 06:19
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Thanks for the input Art.
I know when the SCAR was designed, it was supposed to be one of those all things to all missions, and one of those weapons you could change a few parts out and make it do everything.The adjustable comb on the stock was included so an optic could be used if called for.
I wonder what optics if any, were tested on the SCAR when it was developed. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 07:37
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What's breaking on the scope? I thought zeiss etched the reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 11:18
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Perhaps these will help:

http://fnforum.net/forums/scar-accessories-scopes-mods/23010-optics-your-scar-16-17-a.html

http://fnforum.net/forums/scar-accessories-scopes-mods/28894-optics-just-didnt-work-out.html

and in regard to optics breaking on the SCAR 17:

http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-scar-17s/31290-scar-heavy-eats-optics.html


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 11:44
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Originally posted by gulf1263 gulf1263 wrote:

Check Lightfighter or even better talk to someone who runs one.
I run one and know others who do, I have also talked to an individual in the French Army (an officer in their "Marine" which is their overseas intervention force).
The US gov is/was attempting to field not only the SCAR 17 but also the SCAR 20 and the problems have been reported.
If you don't believe me, take your own SCAR 17 and shot it with various optics and see how they work...that would make YOU an expert...especially when you had to send them in for repair.
I know this is a new concept for the internet...someone with actual experience reporting on a problem.
My LaRue PredtAR doesn't break glass nor does my brothers AR-10 or a friends LMT.
I am trying to help others in not making the same mistakes I did, my intent is not to rustle feathers or gore ox's but to report on my experience and the experiences of others.
Having two high end scopes and one mid value scope break is not coincidence.
Like I said, if you don't believe me, get your own SCAR 17, shot it with your chosen glass and then report back on the results.
Thanks
Art

Simply asked for a link, never implied you were making chit up.  Just wanted to read more on it as I have looked at the scar 17 as a potential purchase.  Chill out
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 13:41
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Another Optic to consider, the new Kahles K16i. 

This optic made it's debut in the 3-Gun community and so far has had a great run. Here is a short review from one of our Team shooters regarding the K16i. Let me know if you would like some info from the person who did the review, I would be more than happy to put you in touch with him.

Enjoy:

Just when I thought I had found the answer to the ultimate 3-Gun optics question, someone has to come along and raise the bar yet again. I guess it really should be no surprise that it would come from the oldest optics manufacturer on the planet. So when I received my Kahles K16i a few weeks ago, needless to say, I was a little skeptical. After running a Swarovski Z6i for the past 4 months, I didn
't think it could get any better. I quickly stood corrected.


First impressions when I opened the box and removed the scope, were that it didn't look like anything special. A basic, short and compact, low power variable design with that "You've seen one, you've seen them all" kinda look. But in this case, looks were rather deceiving. Upon one of the first things to capture my attention was the built in throw lever on the power zoom ring. No need waiting around a couple months for someone to develop one-just a little value engineering. Turning the power zoom ring was smooth and easy yet had a robust feel when rotating quickly from lock to lock. Looking through the scope I quickly realized why Kahles has been in business for so long. The resolution and clarity were nothing short of superb. Obviously some of the finest in European glass with no visible edge distortion and excellent color rendition to provide a bright and clear image. As I turned the magnification up and down there wasn't even a hint of distortion as the second focal plane reticle maintained it's focus. THEN came the good part; I turned on the illumination. To say "I saw the light" would be an understatement. Daytime illumination that we all desire and then some. The small, crisp, red, digital dot was brighter than I would ever need it to be. When I say small, 2.5 cm at 100 m is pretty small but the brightness more than makes up for that. At this point I was ready to mount this bad boy up and get to the range.



As I swapped scopes out on my Black Rain Ord/Fallout-15, I noticed how much lighter the K16i was, compared to the Z6i that I was replacing. Not tremendously lighter, but definitely noteworthy. As a result, that peaked my curiosity so I grabbed my Meopta K-dot for an alternate comparison, and it too was a bit heavier than the K16i. Once the scope was mounted, getting it zeroed was cake. The adjustment knobs were easy to turn and had very precise and positive clicks. Once again a very solid and robust feel. The scope tracked accurately as one would expect from such a quality optic. Once my preferred zero was established, zeroing the turrets required a tool or coin but took only seconds. For peace of mind, I dialed up the turrets a few times and returned to zero to ensure repeatability. On many scopes, repeatability may be a weak spot; not with the K16i. So Zero and peace of mind established……..time for some fun.



The G4b reticle was a fairly basic semi BDC design. A thin cross hair with three subtended hold over lines below it. This design seems better suited for your average hunter but I have been informed by Ken Pratt of Khaybes/Kahles that other reticles are available for the K16i. Even a number of them with an illuminated circle-dot reticle with multiple holdover marks. He also said this scope has a wider field of view than any other 1-6x scope on the market. Shooting at steel from 100 yards out to 500 yards I can certainly attest to that since being spoiled by the wide field of view that the Z6i was known for. Notice I said “Was” known for. With an easily identifiable 3-4’ additional field of view in all directions, I will confirm Ken’s claims as true. The field of view on 1x was truly amazing. Acquiring and transitioning between steel target arrays was quick and the crystal clear clarity and superb resolution made it even easier. As I was doing some close in work, it almost seemed as if I was just looking through a glass tube with a red dot in it. I could hardly see the edges of the scope tube.



The Kahles K16i will be a game changer in the world of 3-Gun and Tactical Rifle Competition for sure. It is not often that I credit my equipment for providing me a competitive advantage, the Kahles K16i is one such piece of gear that I feel will give me an edge.


Regards,
Ken
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 15:03
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FYI, I broke the Swaro Z6 1-6 scope, the Kahles is very similar and might also break, my Zeiss Victory 1.5-6 broke and my Weaver Tactical 3-15 broke...it was not the reticle (?) but the something else, maybe the springs that hold the lens, zero shifts.
Once I began trying to figure out what was causing the problem I became aware that the recoil impulse moves forward sharply for a very short period, then back much more smoothly.
It may be the sharp forward part of the impulse that causes the problem, the recoil impulse is very smooth when moving backward and makes the rifle easy to shoot and control, smoother than the LaRue PredtAR.
Of the three other people that I know with the guns, they all are using Nightforce optics and have had no problems holding zero, no zero shifts.
For most applications I wouldn't run a Nightforce but this is one that I would recommend it for.
Back to the Kahles, if it is as good or better than the Swaro, then it is a great scope...just don't put it on a SCAR 17.
Thanks
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2012 at 17:47
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Originally posted by shagster shagster wrote:

Perhaps these will help:

http://fnforum.net/forums/scar-accessories-scopes-mods/23010-optics-your-scar-16-17-a.html

http://fnforum.net/forums/scar-accessories-scopes-mods/28894-optics-just-didnt-work-out.html

and in regard to optics breaking on the SCAR 17:

http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-scar-17s/31290-scar-heavy-eats-optics.html




Interesting links. Thanks for posting them Shagter and welcome to OT.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2012 at 05:15
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Of course the $64,000 question pertinent to many of the suggestions above is:

Has anybody (including the French Army) been breaking SS HD's on these rifles with a statistically meaningful frequency?  If not, there's really no basis from which to suggest they won't hold up given the specs to which they are built.
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