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FBI returning to 9mm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 12:03
RifleDude View Drop Down
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The FBI has announced it is ditching the .40 S&W and returning to the 9mm, for the reasons we've discussed a few times here. Read the article below:

http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

Despite what the folklore would have you to believe, given modern bullet technology and optimal bullets in each, the combined data over the past decade or so demonstrates no statistically significant difference in terminal effects on a bad guy between 9mm, .40, .357 Sig, and .45 ACP.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 12:19
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So it sounds like they do believe rifle rounds cause hydrostatic shock.  Based on what I have seen in game animals I do agree with that. 

C. Temporary Cavity:

The temporary cavity is caused by tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity. If the temporary cavity is produced rapidly enough in elastic tissues, the tensile strength of the tissue can be exceeded resulting in tearing of the tissue. This effect is seen with very high velocity projectiles such as in rifle calibers, but is not seen with handgun calibers. For the temporary cavity of most handgun projectiles to have an effect on wounding, the velocity of the projectile needs to exceed roughly 2,000 fps. At the lower velocities of handgun rounds, the temporary cavity is not produced with sufficient velocity to have any wounding effect; therefore any difference in temporary cavity noted between handgun calibers is irrelevant. “In order to cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly.”2 2 DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, New York, NY, 1987, page 42.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 12:35
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Though I mostly agree with their premise and findings, I still carry a 45, launching +P ashtray-like projectiles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 15:27
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Though I mostly agree with their premise and findings, I still carry a 45, launching +P ashtray-like projectiles.
Nothing quite like a thicker bullet.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 16:38
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Though I mostly agree with their premise and findings, I still carry a 45, launching +P ashtray-like projectiles.

Hahaha...ashtray. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 21:26
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They may be slow(ish) but they are HUGE. But, I get it, you square the V.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 21:37
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I know power, bullets have come a long way but, I just don't like 9s. Personal preference for me 45.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2014 at 21:44
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I don't know about that whole huge thing.  I have been shooting 25ACP a lot lately...

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 08:02
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Been a 45acp lover since my military days but in the warm weather I go to my pocket pistol,.38 snubbie with + P.Never met anyone who could take 5 of those in the "T" zone......
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 08:06
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Originally posted by stickbow46 stickbow46 wrote:

Been a 45acp lover since my military days but in the warm weather I go to my pocket pistol,.38 snubbie with + P.Never met anyone who could take 5 of those in the "T" zone......

There's a LOT of folks in the cemetery that would concur with that statement. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 08:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 09:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 09:44
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Hilarious! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 09:59
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Nice. Not to scale though, right?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 10:41
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Ya know, this 9 millie meter stuff sounds fine and all, but as I think back through history I can't help but think of the times when the Army and P.D.s went from big bores to small bores only to go back to big bores, because the small bores just didn't work like the big bores.
If you want to carry a small bore, carry a .357 Magnum with 125gr JHPs. It's the number one recorded one shot man stopper.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 10:46
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I don't worry too much about hand guns with modern ammo.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 11:07
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Ya know, this 9 millie meter stuff sounds fine and all, but as I think back through history I can't help but think of the times when the Army and P.D.s went from big bores to small bores only to go back to big bores, because the small bores just didn't work like the big bores.
If you want to carry a small bore, carry a .357 Magnum with 125gr JHPs. It's the number one recorded one shot man stopper.


That was then, this is now.

The bullet is what's most important, by far, not the case it's launched from and bullet diameter is much less important than the behavior of the bullet after it impacts tissue.

The fact is, none of the data recorded in the past couple decades shows any advantage whatsoever with the .40 and .45 over the 9mm in terms of penetration depth, first shot stop %, # of shots required to incapacitate an assailant, and there isn't much difference in the wound cavity volume. The increased bore size provides no advantage in terminal performance whatsoever, yet the tradeoff is you have reduced mag capacity and slower shot recovery/follow-up.

A +P 124 or 147 gr 9mm JHP has virtually the same terminal effect as a 125/ .357 mag.

It's all about bullet selection.


Edited by RifleDude - December/16/2014 at 12:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 11:08
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

 


^^^ Exactly!

Myths and folklore die hard.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 11:34
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Doug, that's a much better illustration than the stick figures.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 11:52
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Originally posted by Peddler Peddler wrote:

ExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellentExcellent

Doug, that's a much better illustration than the stick figures.

Ya, but not as funny. Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 11:53
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Very true! Loved those stick figures.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 12:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 13:11
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I wonder if they all have the same effect in real world applications as opposed to simulated tests?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 13:18
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Originally posted by osprey osprey wrote:

I wonder if they all have the same effect in real world applications as opposed to simulated tests?

Statistically: yes.

In practice: it is all about shot placement.  A hit with a 9mm is far superior to a miss with a bazooka.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/16/2014 at 13:21
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by osprey osprey wrote:

I wonder if they all have the same effect in real world applications as opposed to simulated tests?

Statistically: yes.

In practice: it is all about shot placement.  A hit with a 9mm is far superior to a miss with a bazooka.

ILya
Depends on how far the miss is…

Shot placement sure… however, max ME (commercial loads) is about 540ft/lb… for 45 ACP about 850.  There will definitely be a different "reaction" to a "hit", especially in a non-vital zone.  
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