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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2006 at 11:02
Stud Duck View Drop Down
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Can anyone explain or quantify energy described in ft/lb? I'm looking at energy pertaining to handgun ammo. I know there is alot of factors involved, but approximately how many ft/lb of energy does it take to stop a human in a self-defense scenario? I'm going to purchase my wife a handgun for personal protection. I need to find a happy medium between stopping power an recoil.

 

A 32 auto, 60 gr JHP has ~133 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. A 357 mag, 125 gr JHP has ~624 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and a 454 Casull, 240 gr bullet has ~ 1923 ft/lbs of energy. I'm sure the difference between the three is like getting stung with a wasp vs. getting hit with a Mack truck. But, can anyone tell me how to differentiate between the energy the various calibers offer?

 

All input appreciated.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2006 at 12:54
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There are a LOT of factors involved.  Just take a look here

 

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

 

to see how many ways you can look at it.  Kinetic energy (ft/lbs) is not one of the best ways.  My best example of this is that my Freedom Arms in .45 Colt shooting a hard cast 265gr lead bullet at 1200 fps will drop a big hog in his tracks much better that a 30-06 shooting a 150gr spitzer at 3000fps.  This is 750 ft/lbs for the .45 and 3000 for the '06.  It doesn't add up, does it?  So you've got to get beyond kinetic energy.  Bullet design is critical, whether you use one of the fancy new self-defense bullets or cast lead.  A fairly heavy bullet with a large meplat (flat nose) will deliver knock out power.  Bear in mind that no handgun, or rifle for that matter, will have the effect of getting hit with a Mack truck; only a Mack truck will do that. 

 

First, you have to see what your wife can shoot well.  It may be .22LR.  If so, that's what she needs to use.  My wife uses a .38 Special shooting 158gr hard cast flat nose bullets at about 900fps.  Recoil is fairly mild, with a little less that 300 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.  My tests on "people-sized" game has shown this to be an effective close range load.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2006 at 13:04
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mwyates sum well. Energy , bullet design are meaningless without placement. A good way to "test" which gun is for someone -involves hitting an 8 in plate at 10 yds, holding the gun at the chest, pushing out and timing the event. From the chest a double tap should take about 1 to 1.2 sec. As far as knock down power- consider 45 hardball a proven performer and judge from that. this would mean a power factor of about 175 (momentum). 230 gr times the velocity of about 750 ft/sec. This is the standard for determining major and minor caliber loads. Note that this arguement says nothing about leathality. Imagine an equal-lateral triangle, power, accuracy, and speed. None being more important than the other. the 1911 45 has excelled time and time again.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2006 at 17:43
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Right on.

 

Placement is far more important than anything else, so get something that your wife can shoot well without fear of recoil ripping her shoulder out.

 

Various double-action revolvers in 38 special are probably the best known compromises for this.  They recoil is usually mild.  If you are looking at a semiauto there is a host of 9mm semiautos that do not kick too much.  As far as stopping power goes, with modern high quality bullets a 9mm is as good of a manstopper as a 45ACP.  For people with smallis hands CZ75 is a good platform as a various 1991 variants.

 

Another thing that I also try take into account is muzzle blast.  In my experience subsonic loads, such as 147gr JHP 9mm and 230 gr JHP 45ACP are not quite as loud as high speed projectiles.  I've seen a lot of people develop a flinch from the muzzle blast even when the recoil is pretty mild. 

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2006 at 19:54
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ok,  I really like the idea of getting .22 to train with, as it will save you more than enough time and money to pay for itself.  Over the past 20 years of carrying guns, going to classes, and once in a while teaching a class, I can tell you that most of this stuff is over thought.  Your basic Walther .380 stainless, S&W .38 model 60 or 649,  or Browning Highpower are the main guns women -LIKE- to shoot.  Now, a model 67 or a Sig 225 (if you can find one) most likely would not get you sleeping with the dog, but hey don't get too wild.  Women -LIKE- stainless guns, if goes with the mothering clean instinct. 

 

Women are not men.  There is a real Mars and Venus type stuff going.  Most do not have the upper body strenght for the sharp recoiling short barreled autos.  The little short barreled autos have a high slide cycle speed which works against any sort of loose grip.  That means training problems.  Many autos are some form of Browning delayed blowback design, which is even more prone to having problems with a loose grip. 

 

 A straight blowback gun like the Walther does not have this problem (which is why it recoils a little more).  You can also place the Walther's barrel and slide into an object and it does not come out of battery like a delayled blowback gun. So you can jam it into somebody guts and get bang when you pull the trigger. 

 

Ok, now we will talk about "power" most short barreled 9mm pistols get you .380 power, with more muzzle blast and recoil, and less reliablity as described in the last paragraphs.  We think in terms of more power being better... A shift in thinking need to be happening though... How much power can handle to get good hits with fast needs to be the focus.  This whould be the focus with women.      .32, .380, .38 and 9mm get you where you need.

 

Years ago some of the guys at the club took a woman under thier wing.  It went FUBAR fast...  Her husband was denied bail because he had threatened to kill both her and her son.  We all knew him because he was a cop with a passion for guns and a member of the club.  We all knew that bail would be granted eventually.  In her winter clothes soaking wet she would not have weighted 100 pounds. She was maybe five feet tall.  So the gun rangers got her a Glock .40... On paper it was a magic wand , all the gun rags said so...  She could barely work the slide.  She could not keep both arms locked to shot the thing, so it jamed!  Shoot one handed?  No way!   These problems went away when she went to a 9mm Glock.  We can talk about things on the net, but this case was learning to play cards with REAL money.

 

The other thing goes back to strenght... We have grip verses trigger.  Or why things can get wild with revolvers.  Most women do not have much grip strenght, hey often do guys get asked to open a jar?  So now you have to hold the gun steady while trying to pull the trigger.  Ya, we have this same problem with double action and some "safe pull" autos too. 

 

Revolvers have thier own sets of problems.  They can help you tailor your load to the shooter.  They do not like a lot of dirt.  Small bits of grit that auto push around find thier ways into the hands and prawls and lock up the gun.  Now, my Jeep looks like a clean room compared to most womens purses...  The barrel gap produces alot of flash.  It also makes my ear ring like a bell.  The autos are not as bad in these two areas.  Why flash bang yourself anymore than you have to

 

Final word of wisdom, if your wife has not bought into this idea, good luck.  Don't feed the dog anything that makes 'em fart, because your gonna be sleeping with them for a while...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2006 at 08:58
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Straight blow back guns will limp wrist worse than an browning type autos with locking lugs. Wathers, 22s and some others fall into this catagory. Learning to shoot double action is an art beyond most people not just women, and holding someone at gun point with the light pull of a SA is not acceptable. guns like Kahrs (DAO double action only) etc. are some what in the middle. Although the 1911 platform is even the most usable even for women (proven time and time again by women for women in IPSC, and other matches) 45 may not be the caliber simply the standard by which to judge. Today 357 Sig, 9mm, 9x23. are good choices in something like a Para-Ordinance fast action. Silver has brought up the most important part however-- unless the mind set is there, the training cannot become part of the subconsious, and the commitment will not be there at the time it is needed.

Answering your question about various calibers usually goes like this, All hand guns are bad, the only thing good is that they happen to be in your hand.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2006 at 08:36
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Stud Duck,

Call me crazy, but first thing i want to know is this going to be a carry weapon? If so where? In a purse, in the car where? Pistols are only good when there in your hand. Man with knife at 10 feet, don't go for the gun cause your dead befor you clear leather, RUN as you draw. Home defence, my personnal thinking is mossberg 500, racking the slide does wonders to improve your standing above the creatins. My wife can outshoot most cops in this state with a gold cup but I've seen her lock up under real stress( put the .45 in 4 drunk bikers faces at the door type. I don't do the hide in bathroom thing the front door jam is were I'll make my stand. had they crossed that line they would no longer be breathing). No offence to any ladies reading this, but I wouldn't want my wife as my number 2 man. I don't recommend the 9mm, the LaSalle shootout comes quickly to mind. 357 mag is fine if you don't mind killing the guy a block away at the same time as the perp. You want Big knockdown power more than killing power, Killing power is fine but you may be killed before the perp drops. Drop his butt first and hope someone with my mindset is on your jury. .40 or .45 only rounds I would recommend.      

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2006 at 09:42
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It'll be a carry-gun for her. In purse & in car.  At home we've got a different set of engagement rules. I live in a rural area, at home the shotguns or semi-auto rifle come into play. We don't do the bathroom thing either, take one step into my home & you've just stepped in-bounds. I'm looking for a carry gun because  I just hate to send her into Wal-mart toting an 870.

 

LaSalle shootout? Is this were the guy took "x" amount of 9mm rounds and had to be finished with two rounds from a 12ga? If so I've heard about it.

 

I used to do alot of reading about the effects of bullets on the human body, most of what I read and most of what I was taught in the military stated that if the human body could absorb the first round (regardless of caliber) and not bleed out, it would basically "numb" itself & take more rounds. Supposedly only one in three rounds kill instantly. The perps/enemies eyes, ears & trigger finger would still function for approximately three seconds before shutting down. You can put alot of rounds downrange in 3 sec.  

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2006 at 09:44
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Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

There are a LOT of factors involved.  Just take a look here

 

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

 

to see how many ways you can look at it.  Kinetic energy (ft/lbs) is not one of the best ways.  My best example of this is that my Freedom Arms in .45 Colt shooting a hard cast 265gr lead bullet at 1200 fps will drop a big hog in his tracks much better that a 30-06 shooting a 150gr spitzer at 3000fps.  This is 750 ft/lbs for the .45 and 3000 for the '06.  It doesn't add up, does it?  So you've got to get beyond kinetic energy.  Bullet design is critical, whether you use one of the fancy new self-defense bullets or cast lead.  A fairly heavy bullet with a large meplat (flat nose) will deliver knock out power.  Bear in mind that no handgun, or rifle for that matter, will have the effect of getting hit with a Mack truck; only a Mack truck will do that.

 

  First, you have to see what your wife can shoot well.  It may be .22LR.  If so, that's what she needs to use.  My wife uses a .38 Special shooting 158gr hard cast flat nose bullets at about 900fps.  Recoil is fairly mild, with a little less that 300 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.  My tests on "people-sized" game has shown this to be an effective close range load.

 

Excellent web site yates.....I truly appreciate all the advise all of you have given me on this subject.



Edited by Stud Duck
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2006 at 20:19
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There are several techniques to increase your odds. One is the double tap- it has the advantage of 2 shots the second approx. .2 sec behind the 1st. at ranges up to 10 yards and increases as the range does, (usually called  sighted pairs after 15-20 yards). If multiple targets a double tap can be practiced as a side hammer were the second shot is thrown into the the second target. If the target doesn't go down the first target is Mozambiqued in the head. At no time does the shooter assume the gun has done it's job and the target  should always be ready to be re-engaged. It is very difficult to get this from a revolver. Check out the Kahr and the Springfield xd escecially in 45 GAP.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2006 at 21:08
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Kahr that Dale mentioned is really good.  The XD is also very good.  A lot to be said about the baby Glocks as well.  I love my XD40, it's accurate and fits like they had a mold of my hand before they made it.  One of the subcompact XD's, Glocks or Kahr would be great.  All three are available in 9mm, .40S&W and the Glocks are available in .45ACP.  The Kahr's usually have 2 to 3 rounds less in the mag than the Glocks or XD's.  .40S&W would be a good choice.  Hit's almost as hard as a .45 with less recoil, and less weight.  The one thing I like about the XD's over the Glock is the grip safety on the XD.  Most important thing about a purse gun is nothing and I mean nothing else goes in that compartment of the purse.



Edited by Mithran
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 03:43
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Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

Home defence, my personnal thinking is mossberg 500, racking the slide does wonders to improve your standing above the creatins.

 

Interesting post......

One thing I'll add. 

A bad guy will never hear me "rack the slide" on any of my weapons (unless I have a malf on the first round).

He may however hear me swipe a safety off before I let the air out of him.

All my home defense weapons and carry pieces are in Condition 1. All the kids are gone, and it's just me and the Warden now.

 

I know, I know, some of you guys have kids running around and I understand that it's kind of creepy leaving a weapon in C1 laying around where you can get to it when you may need it. Cool.

 

Racking the slide takes TIME. And when you are stressed, maybe you just woke up, racking the slide takes motor skills that may be rapidly eroding as the event gets more stressful.  

 

Good post Steely.........



Edited by cheaptrick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 07:34
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Originally posted by Mithran Mithran wrote:

Kahr that Dale mentioned is really good.  The XD is also very good.  A lot to be said about the baby Glocks as well.  I love my XD40, it's accurate and fits like they had a mold of my hand before they made it.  One of the subcompact XD's, Glocks or Kahr would be great.  All three are available in 9mm, .40S&W and the Glocks are available in .45ACP.  The Kahr's usually have 2 to 3 rounds less in the mag than the Glocks or XD's.  .40S&W would be a good choice.  Hit's almost as hard as a .45 with less recoil, and less weight.  The one thing I like about the XD's over the Glock is the grip safety on the XD.  Most important thing about a purse gun is nothing and I mean nothing else goes in that compartment of the purse.

 

Does anyone have any experience with the Glocks or Springfields? I was considering these two, but don't know much about them. Are they reliable? Easy to field strip & maintain? Accuracy? etc, etc, etc.....

 

Do they manufacture subsonic rounds for the .40 S&W?

 

Cheaptrick, I'd never let him hear the swipe of the safety. Just let him hear a boom & see muzzle flash.



Edited by Stud Duck
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 10:28
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Earth to net... Think about a gun fight in a phone booth, not some third world battle field.  I mentioned the Mars and Venus thing for a reason. 

 

 Subsonic.40?  YA gonna put a "can" on the thing too?  WTF?  I thought that his was for the -WIFE-! 

 

While Ray Champman teaches "SHOOT WITH STRESS" this is not what he is talking about.  Ray used to use 20 gauge, not 12, shotguns on his entry teams to gain speed.  Ray is over 6'3" and 250 and uses a 12 personally, but cut recoil and blast on his team to gain speed!

 

Try this send "wife" to a class and see what she wants to use.  She may want to trade up latter, but let's get started with something -VERY- comfortable.  That way she will LIKE to shoot and TRAIN.  Then when her skill goes up then up the power level, but not before.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 12:54
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SD:

I love Glocks!! I have a G17 on my side now. I can't say enough good things about them.

That's me.... 

 

The XD's just don't feel good in my hand, but several folks really like them and yes, they are reliable.

 

Do your self a favor and go to range that rents handguns and try out both if you can.

 

I did and I never looked back..... 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 14:07
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Wow Cheaptrick you are the first person I've ever heard say they didn't like the way an XD felt.  I guess your too used to your Glock.  Once they go Glock they never go back I guess.  A lot of people say once they use Glocks everything else feels weird.  Die hard 1911 guys say the same thing about Glocks.  To answer your question they are both accurate and very reliable, maybe the Glock a little more than the XD.  Every gun in the world has it's problems with certain ammo.  I will be honest and tell you my XD40 does not like MagTech ammo, or 155 grain stuff.  As long as I shoot something other than Magtech that is 180 gr the thing will eat any of it.  I got some 155 gr handloads to function perfectly last week.  I'm a 1911 guy but I like my XD.  The XD is very easy to strip.  Lock slide to the rear, flip take down lever located in front of slide realease to up position, release slide, pull trigger and pull the slide off forward.  The barrel and spring/guide rod, which is metal not plastic I might add come out just like the Beretta's.  I can have mine stripped down to its four major parts in a few seconds.

Edited by Mithran
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 14:53
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The focus is "crisis control" not which hollow point works best. Lethal force is just about the ultimate crisis (next to out of beer). The type of tool and it's implimentation is tactics. The operational plan is strategy . The two must go hand in hand. The best place to start is Gunsite, ThunderRanch or Champman's.

Glocks are popular because of the lack of height between the bore center line and the height of the web of the gun. This causes the gun to come straight back instead of flipping up which gives the impression of less recoil resulting in better follow up shots. Frankly I hate Glocks why do I have 3? a 20 (10mm) a 38 (45 GAP) and 33 (357 sig). They are ugly, they smell, they are plastic (almost as bad as the turrets and covers on a Zeiss conquest). Because in standard fire drills they are just slightly slower than my $2000 custom Colts.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 16:07
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I have to admit that XD is uncomfortable for me as well.  I have shot fairly extensively, but it just never feels quite right.  On the other hand 1911 are not very comfortable for me either.  I learned to shoot with a Glock and 1911 tend to point down for me.  GZ75 and Baby Eagle are probably the most comfortable for my grip along with Sig P220.  However, I have the most practice with Glock 31 that I have.  I also have a 22LR conversion kit for it which helped with a flinch that I had developed from shooting too many 357Sig rounds in a fairly light Glock.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 17:07
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I have to admit that XD is uncomfortable for me as well.  I have shot fairly extensively, but it just never feels quite right.

 

Holy Cats!!!

Koshkin and I FINALLY agree on something?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

Well, that just shows to go ya that anything can happen on the OT......

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2006 at 17:59
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>>
koshkin wrote:
I have to admit that XD is uncomfortable for me as well.  I have shot fairly extensively, but it just never feels quite right.

 

Holy Cats!!!

Koshkin and I FINALLY agree on something?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

Well, that just shows to go ya that anything can happen on the OT......
>>


Well, I suppose it was bound to happen some day.  Let's not make it a habit though.


ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2006 at 00:17
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I really need to get on this darn thing at more respectable times, IMHO the Glock 23 is one, if not, The best combat handgun, I've posted that before here somewhere. But I'll say it again, and NO I don't own stock. (note to self : WHY NOT?)  If I'm out, thats whats on my hip. though the 1911 is still a strong workhorse. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2006 at 01:26
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I like Glocks quite a bit and 23 is quite nice, but that really depends on what you mean by a combat handgun.  If it is something you have to carry concealed, Glock 23 is not a bad compromise between size, controllability and firepower.  If it is a bedstand gun, than I prefer somethin a little bigger that is more controllable and easier to point.  For that application, concealability is not important.  Where I live, getting a concealed carry license is as likely as winning a lottery without buying a lottery ticket.  I might only carry it when I am out in the boonies somewhere camping or hiking.  That usually means that I can comfortably carry a full size handgun like my Glock 31 or Sig P220.  That having been said, if I were to move out of California to the free world (Texas, for example), I'd probably get a micro-Glock of some sort (Glock 33 most likely).

ILya
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Ya Bro.

I'm a naitive of San Gabriel Valley, haven't lived there in over 20 years, I have visited, but no way am I ever moving back. Gulf Shores may not have Huntingtons or Redondos waves, but the waters warmer , and the beaches are nicer. After 20 years away my family thinks I'm starting to talk funny anyway.( Y'all, ain't right! ) The 23 just does well for me and it doesn't smack my forearm when I'm walking. I know thats more the rig that the gun but it all fits nice and it has the knockdown power that is IMHO a must with anything your betting your life on. its size is also a factor, its large enough to get a good grip on and small enough to draw with one hand while the other is keeping clothing out of the way. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/25/2006 at 02:06
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I lived in Pasadena for fourr years while going to Caltech.  I am over in Ventura now (work in Santa Barbara).  I assure you that the neither weather nor the beach would keep me here any longer than it takes to pack and move.  There other factors in play, but I may still be moving elsewhere in 2-3 years.

ILya
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Well, I have to agree with a couple of you, checked out an XD....it was the most awkward handgun I've ever put in my hands. We'll probably go with a "baby Glock" for her to carry, no manual safeties, just point and shoot. (Please don't take that as my philosophy, I was just putting it in a nut-shell.)

 

On another note.....what is your opinion about keeping clip-fed handguns or rifles in "Condition 1"? Do you load your magazines to maximum capacity & leave them? Do you periodically unload them? How does this affect the strength of the magazine spring in terms of reliable feeding?

 

When I kept a Ruger Mini-14 beside of my bed, I would load a 30rnd. clip with 20rnds max & I made it a habit of unloading it for a while and rotating clips. Is this overkill or smart thinking? When I was in the military (peace-time) we never loaded a clip to the max (we stopped 3 rnds. short) unless we were going to discharge them immediately or a chance you would need to discharge immediately.

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