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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 08:51
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I found this on another site and thought it was interresting. let me know your thoughts on it.
 
Part I: "Energy Dumping" Is A Myth

Let me state right here and now that there are two terms you're going to hear that have no meaning. If you haven't heard them yet, you will, if you spend any time at all on a shooting range or hanging around the wiseacres in gun shops. Both refer to popular myths among shooters about how a bullet kills, and are based on thorough misunderstanding of ballisitics and biology.

"Hydrostatic shock" is the idea that a bullet kills by setting up a "shock wave" in the incompressible water of which an animal's body is largely composed. "Energy dumping" is the concept that if a bullet stops within an animal, it will kill more effectively than one that goes through and exits, since it "releases its entire amount of energy within the body."

As intuitively appealing as these notions are, the fact is that a bullet kills the same way any other agent of penetrating trauma does. A bullet may act faster than a knife or an arrow, but like them it kills either: 1) by causing a rapid loss of blood pressure, depriving the central nervous system of oxygen; or 2) by physically interfering with nerve pathways; or 3) both.

The False Reasoning Behind The "Energy Dumping" Fallacy

The bullet does indeed have a good deal of kinetic energy, and the faster it's moving the more it has, of course. In the USA bullet energy levels are rated in "foot-pounds", a relatively obscure unit implying the amount of energy needed to move one pound of weight one foot.

European countries use the much more sensible metric system, and in this system the energy unit is the "joule". While both these units refer to energy of movement, the joule has the advantage that it can easily be converted to units used to measure heat. One calorie is equivalent to 4.1 joules, the calorie being a unit of heat. Specifically, one calorie is the amount of heat needed to raise one gram of water one degree Celsius. (The comparable unit in the US system is the BTU, but converting foot-pounds to BTU's is not so straightforward as converting joules to calories.)

A bullet fired from a reasonably powerful handgun, say a hot 9mm Parabellum load, has an energy level of perhaps 500 joules at the muzzle.

So why do I care about converting muzzle energy figures into heat? Because if a bullet is stopped in its target, that's exactly what happens: its residual kinetic energy is, in fact released (or, as the wiseacres have it, "dumped") into the animal's body; but it's released as heat, in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics. (This is the reason why your car's brakes heat up when you stop: that energy can't be destroyed, it can only be converted to another form, and the "defaut" is to convert it to heat.)

The amount of heat liberated by stopping a bullet is surprisingly small: 500 joules works out to be about 106 calories. That would be enough to raise 106 grams (about 0.25 pounds) of water one degree Celsius (about 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit). That's not all that much, especially when compared to the size of animal it has to be "dumped" into.

A man is a pretty large animal (about the size of a deer) and 500 joules (or 106 calories) of energy diffused through the body of a 150-pound (68,100 gram) human would not suffice to raise his body temperature even one-one-hundreth of a degree Fahrenheit. And that is a maximum amount, which assumes the bullet is stopped and that the shot was fired at point-blank range. To have a noticeable effect on tissue temperature you would have to "dump" a great deal more energy than 500 or so joules: the amount of heat liberated even by the biggest and baddest bullet available is very far below the capacity of the body's water to absorb it. It should be obvious, then, that the theory of "energy dumping" is based on an exaggerated idea of how much energy a bullet actually has, and is meaningless as a part of the killing mechanism.

Believers in the "energy dumping" theory never seem to have an adequate explanation for the fact that there are many, many gunshot victims are still walking around with bullets that "dumped" all their energy, and are still inside the victims. Many people with such retained bullets received them at close range from large-caliber guns, and were therefore the unlucky recipients of lots of "dumped" energy, but they are still alive. The answer, however, is really very simple: they are still alive because they were lucky enough not to have received a hit in a vital area.


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Part II: "Hydrostatic Shock" Is An Even Bigger Myth

Proponents of the "hydrostatic shock" theory usually argue that animals are composed largely of water, and therefore a bullet causes a "shock wave" to be set up in them, which causes displacement of organs, and rupture of tissues. Their belief in this concept is bolstered by the spectacular splashes that expanding bullets make when fired into plastic milk jugs filled with water: they imagine that something of the same thing happens in an animal body. They are wrong.

First, animals aren't jugs of water, and don't resemble jugs of water in the least. Animals don't have uniform internal density, and the response of muscle to a bullet is very different than that of, say, the bones or the lungs. At the microscopic level, animals are actually very compartmentalized, and there is almost no "free" water (or any other liquid) to constitute a homogeneous medium in which a "shock wave" can be propagated for more than few millimeters. About the only places where large quantities of fluids are found sloshing around are in the spleen and liver, both of which contain sizeable volumes of "loose" blood.

Second, it has been demonstrated quite conclusively that most body tissues are very tolerant of momentary deformation and quite resilient. Unless a bullet physically cuts a blood vessel or nerve, little more than localized damage is done by its passage.

It is true that in passing through, a bullet does form a so-called "temporary wound cavity" of considerable size, which lasts for milliseconds. Inside this volume a "shock wave" does form, and it even displaces some organs. But the effect of the temporary wound cavity is small, and most tissues and organs resist this very brief deformation. There is certainly no possibility--as you will frequently be told by ignorant gunshop clerks--that you can "...hit a man in the arm and the shock will travel through the blood to his brain and kill him..." Blood is carried in blood vessels, and those vessels are tough. Anyone who has dissected a freshly-dead animal will testify to the strength of an artery: it takes a good deal of force to rupture one, and physical displacement for a few milliseconds isn't enough. It's perfectly possible to displace an artery by several inches permanently with no loss of function. To do significant damage the artery has actually to be hit by the bullet, preferably by the sharp edges of the expanded outer jacket, which will cut it.

Furthermore, there is no way the "shock wave" could "travel through the blood" because the design of the system is such that a) it permits only one-way flow; and 2) it dampens pressure oscillations of considerable magnitude. Arteries that carry blood to the body are very muscular structures and designed to resist considerable heads of pressure lest they burst. And as they get smaller and smaller, ramifying to all the organs, the resistance to flow increases greatly. Even if you were to set up a significant "shock wave" locally, it wouldn't get very far in the system before the increasing resistance to its passage would dampen it out comple
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 09:03
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i think i saw this somewhere, im not sure whether i agree with it though, i have to many questions that need to be answered for me before i can even think about taking a side
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EXCELLENT POST, Bigdaddy!!!!!!Thunbs%20Up  That should be made into a sticky in my opinion!
 
It always cracks me up when people use the term "hydrostatic shock," when that term is an oxymoron, even if the theory behind it was sound.  The word "static" means stationary or non-moving.  So, if we accept that the theory of "hydrostatic shock" is valid to begin with, how is it possible that a body of water (hydro) can exert tissue damage if it is non-moving (static) and therefore cannot transfer energy?  As the article notes, it should be called "hydrodynamic shock."  It's all just marketing bs to help sell hyper velocity.  Increasing velocity aids in killing power by its effect on the behavior of bullet expansion and improving penetration because of momentum (1/2 X mass X velocity squared).  Even then, a credible argument can be made that the KE formula places way too much emphasis on velocity in evaluating killing power, since it doesn't take into account the nature of projectile behavior and its effects on living tissue.  The true benefit of increased velocity is flatter trajectory and initiating better expansion and greater penetration of heavier, tougher constructed bullets.
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see this is what gets me about the whole theory, if you get hit by something thats moving that fast, dont you think its really going to play hell on the nervous system? really it seems to me that the "shock" if you will would really through a body off kilter and it may be erreversable, like being hit with a tazer if you will, disrupts all sorta of electrical impulses in the body and ends up shutting down vital organs.
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

see this is what gets me about the whole theory, if you get hit by something thats moving that fast, dont you think its really going to play hell on the nervous system? really it seems to me that the "shock" if you will would really through a body off kilter and it may be erreversable, like being hit with a tazer if you will, disrupts all sorta of electrical impulses in the body and ends up shutting down vital organs.
 
Yes, but because of the behavior of the projectile and how it transfers kinetic energy to surrounding tissue and the displacement of water, which is non compressible, not because of some shock wave generated by speed.
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im not arguing any shock wave generated by speed, but there is a defined energy transfer that happens, and i still think no matter what science says that the energy kills not speed, sometimes you dont even have to hit an organ for it to work, sometimes you miss all organs and the animal still dies, spinal shots are another example of this, i find all this stuff quite intresting even though i never took a physics class in high school or college.
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KE =1/2mV2

P=mv

Momentum is more dependent on mass where as kinetic energy depends on velocity squared. Hence a 22-250 load may actully have more KE than a 405gr 45-70. The 45-70 will have considerably more momentum which is the ability to resist changes in energy and therefore penetrate more. All other things being equal of course.
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

EXCELLENT POST, Bigdaddy!!!!!!Thunbs%20Up  That should be made into a sticky in my opinion!
 
It always cracks me up when people use the term "hydrostatic shock," when that term is an oxymoron, even if the theory behind it was sound.  The word "static" means stationary or non-moving.  So, if we accept that the theory of "hydrostatic shock" is valid to begin with, how is it possible that a body of water (hydro) can exert tissue damage if it is non-moving (static) and therefore cannot transfer energy?  As the article notes, it should be called "hydrodynamic shock."  It's all just marketing bs to help sell hyper velocity.  Increasing velocity aids in killing power by its effect on the behavior of bullet expansion and improving penetration because of momentum (1/2 X mass X velocity squared).  Even then, a credible argument can be made that the KE formula places way too much emphasis on velocity in evaluating killing power, since it doesn't take into account the nature of projectile behavior and its effects on living tissue.  The true benefit of increased velocity is flatter trajectory and initiating better expansion and greater penetration of heavier, tougher constructed bullets.
 

I totally agree.

 

I feel that penetration is the key. If a bullet stops 1 inch in something and dumps the” energy" inside it will take the blow and run off , but if you have deep penetration

where it uses the energy to go thru the target heart lung ect the "energy" is more useful. I just have never under stood how a .308 bullet at 3000fps can have dump energy like people say. The bullet is traveling so fast and BLOWS right thru the target. now a 4 inch baseball at 100mph can have dump energy because it doesn’t have penetration. I it has a ripple affect or inside displacement.

 

Maybe that is understandable with out the graphs and pie charts.

 
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i just like to pull the trigger and watch things go down
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Believe this is where data came from:
 
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Food for thought, no doubt. I doubt I'd want to get hit either way. I'm more of a believer in knock down power, which if a bullet passes thru there isn't as much as there would be with max expansion and thus retaining the projectile within the intended target. This I don't believe applies towards hunting game animals, as much as it does self defense.
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Originally posted by CowboyBill CowboyBill wrote:

Food for thought, no doubt. I doubt I'd want to get hit either way. I'm more of a believer in knock down power, which if a bullet passes thru there isn't as much as there would be with max expansion and thus retaining the projectile within the intended target. This I don't believe applies towards hunting game animals, as much as it does self defense.
 

What is knock down power?

I have never shot anything and knocked it down. I have hit a deer with a truck and knocked it down but all the energy from the truck and boat going 90mph hit the deer. The deer only got a little of the forward moving energy before it went up and I went right. So a flat projectile hitting something would dump the energy into the target rather than blowing thru it.

 

But a bullet ether entering a deer with enough momentum ” energy” to pass thru would use the energy to expand rather than” dump” it into the deer.

 

I think what I’m trying to say or maybe even asking is that “dump energy” comes from blunt force rather than penetration!?

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Bigdaddy0381 - February/05/2008 at 10:43
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good posibility there bd, like hitting a golf ball with a driver sorta of explanation
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There is lot more to killing things than physics. There are many studies out there on biomechanics and still a lot of disagreement.
A group who is relatively new on the scene has been presenting some arguments regarding pressure wave theory. Check it out http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/
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if the studies and reports werent all pdfs i would spend some time looking at those, nice find doug!
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Okay I’m not bad mouthing the product Okay got it good.

 

TSX'S on the video I have of theirs. They talk about a great big channel wound from there razor sharp edges 4 or 5 times bigger than the bullet after it has expanded. Tell me how it is possible for this to happen when the bullet is traveling at 2000+fps.It would go thru so fast it would blow right thru and not touch anything but what is in front of the bullet. So how dose it move that much matter” inside stuff” so fast? To me it looks like it would push it to the opposite side or not move it at all on the way thru.

 

Maybe I’m thinking too much into this.

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Good Post that just plain makes sense, I actually prefer a bullet to penetrate through an animal doing damage and causing trauma the entire path and then exiting the body punching a second hole which will allow the blood to leak from two spots. The exit hole will most likely be larger than the entrance also further increasing blood loss. Since I attempt to shock the nerve bundle behind the scapula in the deer I shoot to produce a drop in their tracks kill, the blood trail is if the shot angle or wound fails to produce this effect and I have to trail in wet or very thick areas. A deer with one small entrance wound hole will bleed very little externally and thus leave little blood sign to follow if not dropped on the spot. To me its central nervous system shocking not "energy dumping" that produces those bang flops.

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one thing to remember bd is that with bullets like the ballistic tip the faster you push them the faster they open up on impact so i would assume the x bullet works that way as well
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I am afraid the article while making some good points also draws some incorrect conclusions. Terminal ballistics involves and extremely complex interplay of many factors including; primary wound cavity, hydraulic wounding mechanisms, secondary fragments, etc.  Often overlooked is the most important of all of these factors - shot placement (for more than the obvious reasons).

(To avoid arguing semantics  I will go with the term "hydrostatic shock")

Different areas of the body are more tolerant of different types of physical trauma. In other words, some areas are rather vulnerable to hydraulic effects of high speed projectiles and some are not.

The wounding mechanism of hydrostatic shock is the temporary displacement of tissue caused by the pressure front passing through the tissue. When the projectile is traveling faster than about 2000 FPS  (very rough number) the effect starts to become significant. The effect varies considerably depending on the tissue in question and this is where a lot of confusion comes in.

A high speed projectile passing through the lungs or other relatively compressible and most importantly elastic tissue has relatively little hydrostatic wounding effect. The bullet does create a temporary cavity, but because the lungs are elastic they are able to stretch and return to normal form without too much trauma.  (imagine shooting a wet sponge)

However, when the same projectile passes through inelastic, blood rich tissue such as the liver, the temporary cavity causes shearing, and therefore much greater trauma. This can be visualized as the shear lines one sees in an inelastic medium such as ballistic gelatin.

As far as the question about the impact of high speed projectiles on the nervous system, there is some evidence that suggests the feedback caused by high speed projectiles is 'startling' and may cause the 'fall down' response.  However, this is fairly anecdotal. That said, there are area's of the body that are very sensitive to these sorts of shocks, such as the baroreceptors which monitor and provide feedback to circulatory system. The shock from a high speed projectile can trip the barareceptors into sending the signal to drop blood pressure which has the effect of causing a loss of consciousness.

None of this is to suggest that the issue is entirely black and white. For instance, when diver is subjected to a blast wave under water a very common cause of death is pervasive micro trauma to the lungs. Basically, the shock wave is significant enough and applied over a large enough area to exceed the elasticity of the lungs.  In these cases, the liver may fair somewhat better as it is more efficient as passing the shock wave. (over-simplified)



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well said and very easy to understand i like this guy he can explain stuff so stupid me can understand it
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Just for s*t& and giggles let me ask this.

 

With a bow a heart and lung hot at 300FPS the arrow dumps all the energy in the deer. The arrow stop in the deer exits but not completely. The energy has got to go somewhere other than out. So this means it goes" dump" into the deer

 

Now a bullet at say oh 300FPS heart lung shot no bone hit exits the deer with all energy retained.

 

So dose an arrow "dump" more energy into the deer than a bullet would to cause" a static shock)?

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no one explanation can suffice, any explanation can only examine an aspect or angle more in depth, and thus give more information than any one approach.
your tied (naked) to a piece of plywood with a lot of slivers and set on a railroad track, the train is comming with 150 300000 lb cars, (not counting the engines) and you have the choice between that and a speck of dirt with a mass of .000001 gr traveling at 3/4 the speed of light. which one would you do???
when the speck hits you the "energy dump" will be the same as the train but in 1/2000 of the time frame. (the fallacy in the the orginal post, no differential rate of heat exchange).  the result will be an explosion equal to a small tactical nuclear weapon, and of course you will vaporized.
the train is only doing about 35 1/2 mph, and as it hits you the time frame is so slow you can feel the front part of the cranium being inter connected with the back part as you black out. tissue damage is fairly minimal and they are able to determine cause of death.
personally I'd take the train, the engineer has probably been drinking a forget to switch the tracks.
the ratio of the episodes must be in context, the ratio of a high velocity 22 to the size of a pd, --- give me a bullet that has the same ratio to an elk , and the same velocity and I;ll bet you it blows up the elk the same way.
momentum has long been a better judge of knock down, especially if you shoot steel
just a thought to finish--- a 200 semi-wadcutter 45 shooting completely thru someone has still enough energy to make it out the other side, while a jacketed hollow pt. expanded and left in the body, "with all its energy" supposidly has dumped  but still doesn't make it out.
dangerous game hunters never trust to "internal organ damage" from energy dump but go for broken bones (shoulder hopefully)  and complete penetration if possible.
after shooting large animals with large,cast, frontal area bullets, (LBT as an example) completely thru-- its too bad their bc is so bad.
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well you are sorta comparing apples and oranges there, the arrow shaft and broadhead and insert all are included in the total weight so at the same speed (300fps) the arrow will do a better job, your looking at 500gr compared to say 180grs and the broad head cuts lets say a 1" wide wound channel where the bullet at such a slow speed probably wont dont as much damage, obviously the arrow stops before it completely exited so yes all energy is transfered to the deer where with the bullet going through transfers some energy but the rest of it is exerted on a tree or the ground.
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

well you are sorta comparing apples and oranges there, the arrow shaft and broadhead and insert all are included in the total weight so at the same speed (300fps) the arrow will do a better job, your looking at 500gr compared to say 180grs and the broad head cuts lets say a 1" wide wound channel where the bullet at such a slow speed probably wont dont as much damage, obviously the arrow stops before it completely exited so yes all energy is transfered to the deer where with the bullet going through transfers some energy but the rest of it is exerted on a tree or the ground.
 
But wouldn't there be about the same blunt force to shock the nerves system.
 
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energy wise no, becuase the arrows weight is greater so there is more energy available to transfer at the given speed of 300fps, if you speed the bullet up to like 3800fps then its another story
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