New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Empire State shooting
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Empire State shooting

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/25/2012 at 12:48
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1723
re: the Empire state shooting...

a) Why did this story make major headlines?
Chicago had 19 shootings about the same time- hear about that?
b) 9- NINE-  bystanders were shot. According to news reports, the shooter had a .45, shot his victim 5 times, had at least one rd in magazine (that would make 1 up the spout, also), making 7 rds- a full magazine, if he didn't otherwise load w/1 chambered.
c) The murderer did not return fire at police (they got him before he could open up), so he fired 5 rounds, total.
d) The police fired 16 times. If the killer's bullets didn't pass through his victim and hit a bystander, then...
 I'd say this incident serves as an example of how otherwise expert pistol shots (I'm sure) can get rattled when the chips are down.
That, or the NYPD needs some training/range time/reassignment of poor shooters.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/25/2012 at 15:14
cheaptrick View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: September/27/2004
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 20472
Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:


 I'd say this incident serves as an example of how otherwise expert pistol shots (I'm sure) can get rattled when the chips are down.
That, or the NYPD needs some training/range time/reassignment of poor shooters.

I'd say it's both, actually. As I've mentioned many times, stress does bad things to a shooters fine motor skills. 

I haven't been on the gun class circuit for a few years, but I was always amazed how inept "most" police officers, (and some active or former military personnel), were shooting. Especially while under stress.
That said, I've shot along side a few garden variety police officers and found them to be quite good, BUT they spent their own $$$ to get really good training, or took advantage of all the training their departmental budget would allow. 

While at Bill Rogers Shooting School, the gent that got the highest score of all the shooters was an LEO from Ohio, I believe. Man, that boy could shoot.   
  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/25/2012 at 15:58
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1723
I'm sure that budget constraints for training/practice are a big factor.
If the people of NYC get an honest appraisal of what went down (figure the odds), that could put some pressure on the big shots, but realistically there are so many fingers in the pie that meaningful change will be hard won and unlikely, unless some courageous souls really step up and persist in their efforts. True change would require the kind of fundamental readjustment to New York social structure (and national, too) that it would, in fact, be dangerous to those pressing for change.

I do not trust the media to really investigate this, nor any gov't. official from the mayor on down, to either tell the truth or do anything other than play politics. Any reporting will likely reflect an anti- gun agenda amid justifications that "social needs" must first be met.
What are a few wounded when you have hundreds of thousands of hands out and an entrenched and powerful cadre of their enablers?

Statistics show a shocking number of accidental police shootings for reasons discussed in this thread, as well as... I'll just stop there.

Any honest investigation would quickly get to the basis of why those nine bystanders were shot.
A bold statement would be that: they were shot because of what we have become as a people.
That statement has nothing to do with guns.
Still, all the training in the world may have made no difference.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/25/2012 at 16:26
Son of Ed View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar

Joined: June/18/2011
Location: TEXAS
Status: Online
Points: 53889
Shooting a gun off in Manhattan is like shooting a bunch of rounds off in a dairy barn and trying not to hit any cows. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/25/2012 at 21:25
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13873
A 45 ACP with ball ammo will penetrate approximately 25 inches of balistic gelatine, so his rounds could have passed through the initial target and struck others.  The other highly likely possible is that the officers there could not all shoot well, but at least one of them could shoot well enough to stop him.  In these type situations the Police no matter how poorly they shoot simply have no choice but to engage the suspect. It simply is a no win situation people are going to get shot by accident and the colateral damage that results is something that will be argued in civil suits for years to come, none the less the police absolutely must engage the suspect without delay.  I know as well as anyone how poorly some police officers shoot. Part of the problem is that when officers go to range qualify if they fail they allow them to shoot again and again and again until they achieve a passing score.  On the other hand if they fail the PT test they may get one re-take and if they fail that they will loose their job. 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 02:08
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1723
It's a shame that there will be law suits over this, but that's the way it is.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 05:31
bugsNbows View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
bowsNbugs

Joined: March/10/2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 9286
Hmm, Bloomberg's NYC. Home of very tough gun laws. It's nearly impossible to get a pistol or CCW. So how did the shooter get that gun?  Loco
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 11:28
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13873
Originally posted by bugsNbows bugsNbows wrote:

Hmm, Bloomberg's NYC. Home of very tough gun laws. It's nearly impossible to get a pistol or CCW. So how did the shooter get that gun?  Loco
 
Probably mailed it home from Vietnam in a sea ration carton in 72.  Gun control wont stop this type of homicide where he is after one guy who did him wrong, if it wasnt a gun it would be a knife or axe or spear or a hammer etc etc etc.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 12:24
Sgt. D View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2008
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 3641
"The police fired 16 times".
 
I'm curious to know how many officers fired? Two would make since as enough to responsibly do so but, then 16 rds seems excessive so it must have been more than two. Then you have too many returning fire. I don't know it but I'm sure that NYPD train for such incidents to prevent collateral injury. Range time and training is expensive as are law suits. I guess they figure in the long run law suits cost less than proper training and rigid qualification standards. Its easy to sit here pick at the outcome not knowing all the details but at the same time, Its hard not to when you see so much corruption and poor managment in government controlled law enforcment. 
Seems like I heard that he got it legally twenty some yrs ago. All the more proof that the gun never killed anyone until the one holding it became a killer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 18:14
gulf1263 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: June/15/2011
Location: Alaska
Status: Offline
Points: 212
As pointed by Pat Rogers on another forum, NYC is one of the few places where people rush to the scene of a shooting.
The perp was dressed in a business suit with a briefcase and pointed his pistol at the officers either near or in a crowd of people forcing the officers to try and thread the needle to bring him down.
Most in the crowd were hit by bullet fragments and have been released from the hospital.
Two are still in serious condition and still in hospital.
NYPD officers have to carry pistols with thirteen pound plus trigger pulls and are lucky if they can qualify every year much less practice.
If you are an ace shooter and do have to shoot you will be sued by the perps family and abandoned by the city...it is a no win situation.
Art

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 18:56
Sgt. D View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: February/20/2008
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 3641
"thirteen pound plus trigger pull".
Forget that!! The last thing you need is to have to fight with your handgun to get it to fire. I've heard that NYPD is among the highest paid in the country. With that kinda support (the lack there of) they need to be paid well. Has any reports stated how many officiers fired?
 
"Most in the crowd were hit by bullet fragments"
 
Fragments, suggest they were hitting something other than the intended. I can't imagine having to fire with accuracy under fire (or the threat of) with any trigger pull over 6 lbs. That would cause punch firing without remedy. Especially with what is typically offered them for range time and training.
Well my hats off to those officiers and a well deserved salute.
Right or wrong I suspect the media will do its best to crucify them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2012 at 21:59
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1723
In the video, one officer was quite close to the suspect and using a 2- hand hold and appeared to have perfect aim. Another officer had to dance to the side to get an unobscured view of the murderer and moved from side to side a lot, likely because of individuals behind the shooter and in line of sight.
A mandated 13# trigger? That's got to be a throwback to double action revolver days and definitely needs redress. Even good shooters at an untimed range event would have trouble with a 13# trigger.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/27/2012 at 21:14
gulf1263 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: June/15/2011
Location: Alaska
Status: Offline
Points: 212
The thirteen pound plus+ trigger pull supposedly makes the pistols safer...you have to pull really hard on the trigger when holstering to shoot your self.
Most NYPD officers are not gun people, they qualify at the academy and then qualify once a year...budget cuts sometimes mean they don't even get a chance to do that.
I have heard they fired sixteen rounds and downed the perp.
Don't know how many hit though..at least two or part of two went into civilians.
Large posts and hard surfaces caused bullets to fragment and hit bystanders.
Rule one in any large city: see an officer with a drawn gun or hear gun shots, run in the other direction, it is not a tourist attraction.
Art
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Empire State shooting"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Information Needed on Jason/Empire Clipper LeeGoldberg Binoculars 0
United States Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 338LAPUASLAP Firearms 5
Scoping a classy single shot - Please help sns2 Rifle Scopes 2
Does shooting damage a cameras mic? sucker76 Cameras, Equipment and Settings 6
Cooper One-Shot Competition m00n Shooting 11
Millet 6x25x56.....good LR shooting scopes? westerbk Rifle Scopes 32
Pretty and pretty darn good shot. Sgt. D Shooting 4
New To Distance Shooting NW425 Rifle Scopes 70
WY-SHOT 2016 Ernie Bishop The Range Report 14
New to shooting need a scope gardenhose Rifle Scopes 35


This page was generated in 0.547 seconds.