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Elite 4200 trouble

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2007 at 22:17
arro222 View Drop Down
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   I'm looking through an Elite 4200 1.5x6 Firefly in low light outdoors. I am noticing no difference in brightness between looking through the scope and my unaided eye. I found a reviewers article where he noticed no difference as well. I am surprised as this is supposed to be a pretty bright scope. Its clear as all get out, just doesn't seem to be giving a brightness assist. Is anyone else with a 4200 experiencing this as well?

Edited by arro222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2007 at 22:53
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All optical systems, except light amplification systems like 'starlight scopes', exhibit light loss due to scatter, reflections, etc., so they won't appear any brighter than naked eye. What most do is magnify an image, which makes an object easier to see provided the light loss isn't too great.     
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2007 at 23:25
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If I may suggest something here, compare the Elite 4200 to another scope under the same conditions you are describing. That will tell you whether or not there is an issue with the scope. Naturally, you should compare it to a scope of similar quality and power settings.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 11:12
arro222 View Drop Down
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Unfortunately, I do not have a scope of parallel quality. I do have a medium grade Simmons that appears the same as the 4200 brightness wise but certainly not clarity wise. I also have a Pentax PCF V 8x40 bino that I definitely get an illumination assist with. What Ist scope states makes sense. Some scopes seem to be brighter than others allowing vision where other scopes cannot. if I were looking through a Smidt& Bender it might give me an illumination assist. I'm guessing but I would say it may be a coating difference. I was hoping some one else with a 4200 could chime in to "enlighten" the situation 

Edited by arro222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 12:17
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I just got off the phone w/ a rep from Bushnell. He states that if it is as bright as the unaided eye, that was a good thing since the scope is allowing %95 percent of the available light through. That of course assumes the human eye allows %100 of the available light through. That being said, why do some scopes appear to be providing  a more illuminated image than others, allowing things to be made out where other scopes cannot pick up in the same given light?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 15:20
Roy Finn View Drop Down
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arro222, I am not the best person to answer this, but, I do own 6 4200's so I can address this on some level. First of all, do not try to compare what you can/will see through a binocular versus a rifle scope. If you compare, and both have similar optical values, meaning for instance, a 6x42 rifle scope and say a 7x42 binocular, you will see more through the binocular. In short, two eyes vs. one. More total light with the bino vs. the rifle scope and the brain's ability to receive more info with both eyes compared to only one. That is a very simplistic version of a complicated issue. Also, depending on your age, your eyes may not be dilating to their fullest. Max. dilation is about 7mm in total darkness if you are young and healthy. A person in their 40's might only have a max. dilation of 6mm. In your 50's a max. of 5mm or so. Again this is not a scientific explanation, but it is as close as I can make it without getting complicated.

     In the end, a rifle scope manufacturer is trying to maximize light transmission, magnify the viewing image and provide the sharpest image at the same time. The better (expensive) the glass and lense coatings used equates into the brighter and sharper the image you are viewing. If you are in the field/woods in low light using your 4200 at say 6x and you are viewing an object at say 50 yrds, you should be able to see the object better through the scope than your unaided vision. With the binocular, even better yet.

 

 



Edited by Roy Finn
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 23:09
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 Obviously I was hoping to be dazzled by the 4200 and at the same time wishing I could pat myself on the back for not having to spend over a grand to get stella low light performance. I guess its just not happening at this price point. Thanks for taking the time.~~~Lou~~~

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2007 at 23:38
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arro222 - It could happen at this price point...try Nikon Monarch or Weaver Grand Slam..

Edited by seattlesetters
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 00:57
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"...why do some scopes appear to be providing  a more illuminated image than others, allowing things to be made out where other scopes cannot pick up in the same given light?"

 

That is 'contrast', which is the ability to detect subtle differences in an image. Some objects in an image can be large but of low contrast, and difficult to detect unless the image has a low level of scatter along with a high level of resolution. One example would be a dirty, scratched windshield on a car with the sun shining on it, producing a lot of glare, and resulting in the inability to detect a semi that you're about to run into. Another would be a nice telescope trained on a faint galaxy,  filling the field of view and just detectable with fully developed night vision. In a scope it would be the ability to see a deer standing among some bushes of similar color, in the shade as the evening turns to night. A larger objective, a large exit pupil, good polish, good coatings, blackened edges on the lenses, good blackening and baffles in the tube, clean optics, etc., all help to maximize contrast and allow the resolution that the design is capable of to be exhibited.      

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 03:22
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Originally posted by seattlesetters seattlesetters wrote:

arro222 - It could happen at this price point...try Nikon Monarch or Weaver Grand Slam..


Both are good scopes, but Elite 4200 glass has an edge over both.

To the original poster: Elite 4200 is not a night vision scope.  There is no amplification.  All it does is make the image appear a bit closer so you can resolve the details you can't resolve with the naked eye.  If the scope is clear (as you indicate), it probably does what it is supposed to do.   Find some object you can barely see with your naked eye and then look at it through the scope.   Needless to say, do not hold  the scope in your hands unsupported.  Make sure it is resting on something fairly solid.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2007 at 09:43
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 If you're looking for that "Pop" as I call it, or in this case the low light image that makes you say, wow!, I think you will have to go to one of the higher end scopes. However,quit stressing, you have a great scope, and I'll bet you can shoot up to quitting time without any difficulty.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/20/2007 at 19:20
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I'm familiar with the apparent 'illumination' that one sometimes sees, where a magnified scene in low light observed with a decent optic appears brighter than naked eye, but it is just apparent. My 7x50 binoculars, purchased primarily for astronomy, do it well when peering into the shade, when looking in the evening, and even when glassing around the area at night to give my neck a break from looking at the sky.

 

I received my first scope this week, a Sightron S2 1.5-6x42, and looking around as it's getting dark it seems that one needs about 4x or more with a large exit pupil to get the 'glow' when looking into shady areas. With my scope 4x is almost an exit pupil of 11mm, at 6x it's 7mm, and while some might say that more than 7mm is 'wasted' as most eyes don't open up that much, one needs to see what assumptions are being made. As an example, if the optic has an exit pupil of 7mm and your eyes have opened up to 7mm, to get full benefit of the exit pupil you need to be prefctly aligned. Not close, perfect. If you're off alignment 0.5mm, which is 0.020in, or about 7 to 10 hairs, you're off 0.5mm on one side and 0.5mm on the other side, so you've lost almost 1mm of exit pupil side to side. Can most of you hold your head and rifle still within 020in, much less get it aligned that close as you bring your rifle up to look thru the scope ? Do you now see where large exit pupils come in handy ?

 

I noticed at 4x, an exit pupil of almost 11mm in my scope,  that the image darkened as I moved my head just a bit, while holding the scope steady on a tripod.    

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2007 at 18:16
arro222 View Drop Down
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Istscope, I just got back from Austin, TX so I did not see your most recent post . I only think I know what you mean by apparent eg; not being scientifically measured. Apparent is good enough for me. You've got me wondering about where I was in relation to exit pupil. Perhaps that may be a contributing factor as to why my Simmons Whitetail looks as bright as the 4200 in low light. Again the 4200 being clearer. Just didn't think that was supposed to happen. Although I once heard about a guy who had a BSA Catseye who thought it was brighter than his Vari X III. He just couldn't shoot twice in the same spot with the Catseye. It just may be that brightness is in the eye of the beholder as well.

 (crap, another stinkin subjective element in life)

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 15:59
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In addition to what koshkin said, take the bushnell out in low light.  Look at something in the shadows, say 100 yds away with a cheap scope.  Then look at it through the bushnell.  I went from shooting the cheap 3-9x32 simmons on a savage package gun to an elite 4200 3-9x40 and the difference in low-light clarity is incredible.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 09:16
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elite 4200's are quite bright in my opinion -

 

you can't expect too much lowlight performance from a 36mm scope as compared to a bigger objective scope.

 

i have a 50mm 4200 that really sucks in the light and is every bit as bright or brighter as my conquests.

 

i think the 36mm objective is the limiting factor here, not the scope/glass.  i have been very please w/ the lowlight performance on the

4200's.

 

my 2 cents.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 11:17
arro222 View Drop Down
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jonbravado. A large bell end  aids in  light transmission at higher powers. my elite at 4x and your elite 50mm at the same power should show no sign of better brightness. Power up my elite to 6x. I am at a 6mm exit pupil. Yours is at 8+. If some 20 something is looking through the scopes (saying that youngin has a 7mm eye aperture available to him), your scope should look brighter and I at 58 should see no difference at all. I was expecting better lowlight performance from this scope. As far as contacting the company and talking to a rep, He was dead wrong when he told me I should expect nothing better (brightness wise) than the naked eye. A good scope should be able to produce better light transmission than the naked eye for a variety of reasons.

 

Agreen, That was exactly as I was hoping for, an incredible difference. Clarity cannot compare, however brightness between the Simmons and the Elite are comparable. I just didn't think that should happen. Maybe my eyes are opening to only 4mm and are unable to take advantage of the Elites alledged brightness. I dunno but it is bothersome to me

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 11:41
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I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about  "A good scope should be able to produce better light transmission than the naked eye..."   Great scopes can only gather about 95% of the available light.

 

I think it is quite possible that the 2 scopes you mentioned could appear to have the same brightness to your eyes and yet to someone else, one might seem brighter!  If you could compare the 4200 to a much higher $$ scope and see differences..... then the 4200 may not be best for you.  If they seem the same..... then you know its your eyes and you can make a more informed decision.

 

Good luck

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