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Effective Arguments

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 11:19
Graysteel View Drop Down
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I have been doing my best to have conversations with folks who are ‘on the fence’ about the threatened new firearm restrictions. I have found at least one argument that seems to resonate with them.

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Many of these folks have been told that the only reason that the Newtown shooting happened was because of the AR firearm and the magazine capacity.

 I have found a very effective rebuttal to this position is to politely explain that this simply isn’t true. I then point out that in the Virginia Tech murders, more people were killed and no ‘assault rifle’ was used. In fact, relatively low capacity magazines (10 and 15 round) were used. I then point out the Newtown shooter actually had two similar pistols on him, so it doesn’t really make a difference which specific firearm or magazine capacity he used on defenseless victims - the outcome is the same.

 At that point they are generally able to see that there is something disingenuous about going after specific firearms and magazines. The can generally then understand that this appears to simply be a spin job aimed at an incremental grab. And, some even seem to get the idea that arming potential victims might be a better answer.

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 I would encourage others to please post arguments that have found to effective with those ‘on the fence.’ We all know that “Preaching to the choir” isn’t very helpful. We need to find out what arguments are resonating with those who can be reached. Please stick with discussions you have found to be actually effective rather than ones you postulate will be effective.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 11:28
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Good idea Graysteel.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 19:32
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I got this, I believe from Andrew Wilcow. If you are the victim of a home invasion, which do you want, a phone or a firearm?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:21
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If you're inside a building with a mass murderer who opens fire, would you rather have a new gun law in the books or a gun in your hand?

When seconds count, the police is only minutes away.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:28
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While I agree with the OP and I also disagree:
 
The point that anti gun folks have is
 
no guns = no murders
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:43
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The no guns=no murders fallacy is not valid on any level. The government will still have guns.           

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

In 1911,

Turkey established gun control. >From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

China established gun control in 1935. >From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. >From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
—- ————- ————-

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
—————————–

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:49
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Originally posted by M1Thumb M1Thumb wrote:


The point that anti gun folks have is
 
no guns = no murders
 
 


1. They're wrong. There are numerous murders with implements other than guns. Just ask OJ.
2. You cannot legislate morality, and there will always be criminals in every society. A person intent on murdering another will do so by whatever means available to them, gun or no gun.
3. In 2011, more Americans were murdered by hammers than by all rifles combined, regardless of type.
4. We have a 2nd Amendment guaranteeing the individual, "natural right" to armed self-defense that trumps their point. The fact that a small % of the 600 million guns owned by American citizens are used in the commission of a crime is the unfortunate price of Liberty.
5. The same gun that can take an innocent life can also save same.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:55
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abortion kills more people in this country than guns do, who is stopping that???
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:09
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logic doesn't work with these people..


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:11
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One thing to point out is that the New Town shooting killed numerous folks - kids - in a short time span.
 
The anti gun faction seems to not be understanding that other things are surely and slowly killing children as well as adults but in lieu of having numerous killed in a short span it is stretched out over a long period.
 
They have focused in on firesarms because of the mass kill incidents and the news media reporting shootings.
 
If the news media started reporting other things with the same vigor that they report gun incidents I would be curious what would be on the plate now......
 
RD - no arguemt from me on your points.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:14
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I was talking with my Mother yesterday...

Went through a few rational reasons why the laws being proposed and passed are silly...

Then I told her to forget all that. Forget whether a law makes this gun illegal or that magazine illegal or any of that stuff... No matter what you do or don't do... No matter what's legal or isn't...

It's still illegal to shoot people.

"Mom, I just can't picture that guy in Newtown walking up to the door with two pistols and a rifle, in the grip of a murderous rage, seeing a sign that said "No Guns Allowed" and saying "Dammt!" before heading home."

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:23
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MC - you are correct
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:56
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Originally posted by MC Escher MC Escher wrote:

I was talking with my Mother yesterday...

Went through a few rational reasons why the laws being proposed and passed are silly...

Then I told her to forget all that. Forget whether a law makes this gun illegal or that magazine illegal or any of that stuff... No matter what you do or don't do... No matter what's legal or isn't...

It's still illegal to shoot people.

"Mom, I just can't picture that guy in Newtown walking up to the door with two pistols and a rifle, in the grip of a murderous rage, seeing a sign that said "No Guns Allowed" and saying "Dammt!" before heading home."

http://youtu.be/S7pGt_O1uM8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 22:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 18:31
Graysteel View Drop Down
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Not to resurrect a dead thread, but in the spirit of the original post:

I recently talked someone who is from Canada who said they have had good luck swaying folks who are neutral about firearm laws with the following:

Basically, Canada went through something very close to what we are facing today in the U.S. with the end result being that guns were nearly banned for a bit. They have since loosened the restrictions. However, when they first put the new laws through they had a significant increase in home invasions almost immediately with some fairly high profile and grizzly results.  

This is obviously a more effective argument when presented by someone who lived though it directly, but it does seem to resonate with folks who are neutral on firearm ownership.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 21:24
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Problem is you can present the facts from Australia, The UK, and Canada to the folks and they say ppppfffft  trumped up information - they are a my way or the highway mind set...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 21:58
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Looks like Gabby Gifford jumped ship, her and her husband. Wonder what it took and from who??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 22:03
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Looks like Gabby Gifford jumped ship, her and her husband. Wonder what it took and from who??
 
I read a short blurb that both were gun owners but they are dead set on getting rid of firearms as I understand it - is that what you are referring to ??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 22:30
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Saw on the news today she was placing herself in opposition to the NRA's stand of "common sense, laws and bans do not effect criminals". Earlier this month she voiced that guns were not the problem. She's been bought or pressured cause the change is to abrupt!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 09:24
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I understand that there are a lot of folks who won't be swayed by logic or any argument. However, there is a large group in the middle that is open to discussion. We have all gotten so tired of arguing with the extreme anti's that we don't spend much time looking at what arguments are effective with the folks who might be swayed. I have personally, talked to several people who started out with the position "I don't really see the need for X type of gun." and left the discussion with them understanding why they have value.

The way I see it our focus needs to be on figuring out which folks we can reach and the best way to do that. I am taking a young lady to the range this evening who is interested in learning to shoot. She is one of the reachable ones. I wouldn’t have figured that out if I hadn’t worked on my ‘soft sell’ approach a bit.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 10:16
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My frustration is in the fact that "What argument and what debate"? Ask those "on the fence" Do they really beleive that banning any type of gun or magazine is going to have any effect at all on criminals or the unstable? And ask them is it their goal or hope that all guns be totally removed from our society? Ask them to consider what criminals and the unstable used to rob and kill back in mid-evil days. Do they want to defend themselves from swords, bows, clubs and knives? Do they really beleive that totally removing guns from our society will remove crime and killing? Ask them if they were attacked by someone with a club or knife would they rather have a club, knife to defend themselves or a gun? Inform them that by removing guns from our society they are in reallity disarming themselves and those who would defend them when the law couldn't or wouldn't be there when needed. Those who are on the fence if in fact they are, have to be those who have never faced any real hard choices in life and there by have not had to put up any kind of fight to live or help another to live.
In all honestly, making a sincere effort to be open minded about the issue. The want vs need for "types" of firearms is mute. It is already well regulated concerning what the military carries and what the public is allowed to have. The anti's use these made up classes for the purpose of debate. Its a ploy to keep the ignorant occupied while they do their back stage vodoo. I continue  to accuse the NRA and other pro-gun orgs. of stonewallin us to keep themselves a job. If they took the monies we send them and made public the truth about what is going on. The "Debate" would be over in a day. This is not about gun control, Its about subduing this population for the comming world order.
 
The folks you mention who won't be swayed by logic or any argument. They have an agenda. They see some promise of a continued free ride or have some hope of authority in the future gov. Because in a dictatorship men are not equal. Those in authority are wealthy and the rest are subjects living on what is given them. Those who are content to let someone else (the law) defend them in a crisis are the first ones to surrender under pressure or threat. They are in fact subjects already and have nothing to loose. So they think!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 10:34
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Sgt. D I certainly can't make too wide of a generalization, but my experience has been that there are a lot of people today who simply don't know anything about guns or why they matter. They aren't bad folks, they just don't know much about the subject.
 
Take the young lady I am taking to the range this evening. She is a 23 year old kid who just got out of college. She is working in the medical field and lived in the city her whole life. She has been told that guns are scary and dangerous, so she believed it. She never saw a real gun until I showed her one.
 
If you talked to her casually she would have told you she was ok with the proposed laws because she never really heard the other side of the argument. She is going to the range for the second time with me this evening. In short, we are winning her over and she might convince others. We need to do more of this.
 
I agree there are issues with the various lobby groups, I am just talking about how to best reach those who agree because they don’t' know both sides of the argument.
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 11:16
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If someone says "they should ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines"; ask them to define what an "assault weapon" is, and how many rounds should be in a magazine. It will give you an idea of their level of information or misinformation, and where to start your rebutle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 13:08
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I saw much of the same in the shop. Porblem is by the time they come in a gunshop or seek out experience on a shooting range the fence ride is pretty much over. They have been exposed to some threat or potential threat and realized that they may have to save their own bacon. The NRA and other groups taking our money in the name of "preserving out rights" need to be getting this kind of perspective out in front of the masses. If they mount a campaign on perspective showing that most responses that law enforcement make is after the attack. Rarely if ever preventing robery or murder. And that your best hope of surviving said attack is the ability to defend self and other potential victoms. Some percentage of those fence riders will see the light. The school shootings is a prime example. Ideally I wouldn't want armed teachers in schools but, in light of these events I would insist on it for the childrens sake. If the principle or any teachers in those schools had been trained and armed the out come would have been much different. Not to mention but must be mentioned that had the killers had any suspicion that they would face someone with a gun it likely would never have happened. I'm willing to give most folk out there credit for common sense. If the NRA and others would adjust fire and get these thoughts out longer and louder than the anti's we would see less fence riding and much more support for "selfdefense". One contention is they say the major networks won't air these views. Hogwash!! you flash the cash and they will air anything. Thats one reason I'm out with the NRA. These letters they send saying "send us $ and we can save your rights". Apperantly what they've been doing ain't goin so well. They need to expose whats going on with the gun and ammo manufactors and the invester groups. We're gettin shafted and nobodies offering kisses.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2013 at 08:31
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