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Do most shooters you know use quality scopes?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2010 at 23:55
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Dolphin Overton

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So I know I've asked on here about what kind of scopes most of you use. I know the results have always usually favored scopes like Nikon, Leupold, Burris, Vortex, etc. I also read a lot of bad on here and other sights about cheap Chinese scopes like Simmons, Tasco, etc. Even other cheap scopes that aren't made in China get bad press. I've used both and while the cheaper Simmons and Tasco's have worked for me There is a difference between a lot of $2-300 scopes and a $50 Tasco or Simmons. Now my Leupold VX-I is the exception to this as I couldn't tell a difference. However, most of the scopes in that price ranger there does seem to be a difference. After seeing so many guys online on various sights say they don't use cheap scopes as they fail often. Now I think most of us can all tell a difference between these cheap scopes and most expensive ones clarity wise, but it seems like most people just want it clear enough to use, and to hold zero.

I decided to ask around to most of the shooters I know and see what they use and like. The name that keeps coming up is Simmons and Bushnell Banners. I asked several guys I hunt with. 5 of them really like and have Simmons, one of them likes Bushnell Banners(he said he tried Simmons but it failed after a year so he no longer uses them), another uses a cheaper Bushnell. A couple of them say they have had a few Tasco's fail and no longer like Tasco, but have never had a problem with a Simmons. None of them use even scopes in the $200 price range other than myself.

So since all of the guys I hunt with use cheap scopes and most of them have good luck, I decided to ask a few other friends that both hunt and shoot for fun. The first one I asked said he had Bushnell Banner, a few Tasco's, and quite a few Simmons. He said he likes them all and Simmons seems to be his preferred choice. Now most of his Simmons are the White Tail Classic ones, but not all of them. He also has some old Redfields and likes them. He said he has had a few scopes fail over time, but not many and in general he has found them to hold up well.

Then I asked two others that are brothers. One mostly a gun collector that hunts, the other is a hunter and mainly just a hunter. Both of them said they prefer Tasco's.

Then tonight I got to chat with another guy that owns a lot of guns and shoots a decent bit. He told me he has had several he likes but that he has a Simmons he likes and he has never had a problem with it. He then told me he tried Konus or something recently as they had an over the counter replacement warranty and so far he likes them.

Another friend that is a hunter mostly and only has a few guns has a couple Simmons and has had them for quite a while and likes them. He has used Tasco and Bushnell and said he has been happy with them too.

I've talked to 2 others that have had Leupolds. One sold his to me cheap when it failed to hold zero. Another one had his fail to hold zero and traded it for a .22 rifle. So I no longer know anyone that owns Leupolds.

Now one thing I've noticed is that several of these guys either don't have the internet and don't use it, or they have it and use it, but don't surf gun forums and don't seem to care what others think too much.

So this really made me wonder. For you guys, do your friends, people you meet at the range, guys you hunt with, etc that don't go by what they read online still use scopes in the $200+ range. Or do they use cheap scopes from Simmons, Tasco, Bushnell, etc?

Sorry for the long post. I was just curious as I was really surprised how many people that I've always thought of as gun collectors, great hunters, etc, use and recommend cheap scopes. They seem to think my $220 Burris is on the high end of things. The other thing that made me wonder about this is when I went to Dicks the Burris for $220 was the second nicest scope they had. They did have one Nikon in a higher magnification for slightly more. Most of their scopes were under $100 though. Several gun shops I've been to lately I've noticed also seem to only stock cheap scopes with one or two mid priced ones. I just was surprised and wondered if others have run into this. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 00:14
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To know quality you must have first encountered it. Most people that discharge firearms have never looked thru good glass to see what they are missing. Why pay $400 for a 3X9 Zeiss when Simmons makes a 3X9 for $39.00 aren"t they the same power? The box stores will make more profit selling 10 $39 scopes than one $400 scope. Once you have experienced a quality scope and recognize what you have been missing before, you will always be drawn to it. Then you will be the moth to the candle.  You will also have the equipment to bag the shots, that the others speak of, as the one that got away.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 00:25
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Well said Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 09:01
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At a range I frequent it's quite rare to see many folks with decent scopes. I see a lot of Leupy Riflemen and WalMart bubble pack specials. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 10:32
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I have buddies with scopes that run the gamut from very cheap to very expensive.  I see scopes of all quality levels at local ranges.  From my unscientific observations, it appears that scope quality usually tracks rifle quality somewhat, but with scope quality lagging behind a little.  I would say the "average" shooter I see at the range has a $200 - $400 scope -- Burrises, Leupys, Nikons, Bushnells, etc.  I think overall scope quality seems to be increasing vs. what I saw 2 decades ago.  Based on my observation of behavior, it seems to me that most shooters with the really cheap scopes aren't the enthusiasts, just casual hunters who only use their rifles a couple weeks out of the year.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 10:47
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Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

To know quality you must have first encountered it. Most people that discharge firearms have never looked thru good glass to see what they are missing. Why pay $400 for a 3X9 Zeiss when Simmons makes a 3X9 for $39.00 aren"t they the same power? The box stores will make more profit selling 10 $39 scopes than one $400 scope. Once you have experienced a quality scope and recognize what you have been missing before, you will always be drawn to it. Then you will be the moth to the candle.  You will also have the equipment to bag the shots, that the others speak of, as the one that got away.

That's just the way it was for me. I've had my share of cheap scopes that were "ok" until they broke, which they always did.
The shops around here that carry Swarovski and Zeiss have ruined me, since they're always willing to let me look through their fine glass. I've never sprung for anything so fine as a Diavari or Pro Hunter, but now I just can't bear to settle for anything less than a scope in the Conquest performance class.

My son loved to try to hammer boards together when he was a tot, so I bought him a small, cheap hammer made in China. The head shattered with his first or second swing. That Chinese junk looked like a hammer, but it really wasn't a hammer.
I got a cheap Barska 3-9x40 in a trade and it had a really nice, black reticle, but wouldn't put 5 shots within a 3' circle at 200 yards and had just over 2 1/4" eye relief at 9X.
It looked like a scope...

I don't know why people even bother building such junk.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 11:03
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A few notes on ranges and guns and scopes.

1.  At the usual 100 yard line, the only safe place to be downrange is center mass.  Most of the shooters I encounter at the range cannot shoot well.  Sure, they can kill a deer, but deer are fragile and not the best test of one's marksmanship abilities.

2.  Good glass does not a good shooter make.

3.  At the 200 yard line, there are usually about the same number of bulls-eye hits, but far fewer guns, and far fewer cheap scopes.

4.  At the 300 yard line, more bulls eyes, much better glass, typically better rifles.

5.  At the 600 yard line, the Simmons and Tascos are nowhere to be found, and no Wally World $400 rifles either.  I ain't being a dick, just saying that the average shooter cannot accurately put rounds on target at range, and the average shooter is not properly equipped to do so.

6.  Having a $3000 scope for a rifle that will never shoot past 100 yards is not necessary - or reasonable.

7.  Go to an F-class or tactical match and you'll find no winner's circle shooters with Tacso or Simmons - or, I should say, "I" have never seen a winner with said scopes.

8.  For a deer rifle, Simmons and Tasco are fine, they typically hold zero OK, their glass actually magnifies the target, and they do not usually fall apart on the rifle.

9.   Many suggest (usually owners of lesser expensive scopes) that more expensive scopes aren't worth the money.  Depending on use and shooter, that may be true.

10.  With the "tacticool" crazy in full effect, I can say with some authority that the gear in the field in combat conditions does not say Simmons or Tasco.  When the loser dies, shooters don't trust those brands or their wares.

11.  There is MUCH more to a good scope than glass.  If you never turn turrets, less so, but still lots more than glass.


I've shot the cheapest o the cheap (Tasco Silver Antler) and the best of the best (Hensoldt, in my opinion) and  see a world of difference between the 2.


Edited by Rancid Coolaid - May/31/2010 at 14:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 12:18
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  RC covered it very well,Thanks.Now I would like to add one more thing,as stated it's not just about glass,as I'm now 64 yrs young & haven't been able to shoot iron sights for about a dozen years I'm forced to use a scope!
  I love iron sights but reailty dictates I use glass.I started with a $200 burris as age takes over every 4-5years I must trade up to better glass,As it stands now I'm into the Conquest scope group I hope I never have to leap up to tha Alpha group.
  One other thing,i't really nice to hear the turret clicks especialy when I can't read the #'s.Yes I know get stronger glasses,but with coke bottle thick glasses that creates a whole other problem[like fogging]
  Any way this is just my added 2cents..  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 14:19
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My neighbor use the cheapest he can get away with. Just put a Simmons variable on his Rem 11-87. I don't know what he has on his 308. Not one to show off his guns.
Another person I have hunted with has tied all the cheap scopes, and today used a VX-II 4-12 on his .22-250, and a VX-3 2.5-8 on his shotgun. His Rem700ML has a VX-III something on it.
His other hunting buddy's use Wally's World scopes.

I don't go to ranges these days, as I have a 50 yd, and 100 yd one where I live, so I don't know what's being used there.

On a more personal note, I started using Redfield's back in the early '70's.
By '75 I was switched over to all VX-III's. Owned 10 in all.

Lately,I've been switching out all my early Leupy's for VX-3's, VX-L's, and been picking up Kahles KX's (2 so far) when I find one.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 15:01
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Hello gentlemen, first post.

Until recently I never owned a scope that wasn't a Nikon Monarch or VX-III. then I bought a couple guns that had some cheaper scopes on them and I was surprised. One was the Weaver Grand Slam, and the other was a Burris Fulfield II. So I've been experimenting with some cheaper stuff, which is how I stumbled on this site. I have one of the new Redfield scopes now, and will be mounting a Buckmaster on a 30-06 next month. The only one that bit me was the NCStar, what a piece.
Most of the guys I know look through my scopes and say "it's nice, but I'm not going to pay that." And I don't have any REALLY nice scopes. That said they're all hunters, and most have never shot paper past 100yds, and if its inside a skoal can, it's good enough.
From what I can tell, the variance from dirt cheap to top end has shrank dramatically in the last 15 years.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 19:31
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People spend money based on what they percieve as a reasonable value based on their level of need and amount of use.  There are guys that buy top end scopes for their .22 simply because they shoot it all the time and they enjoy having a good scope.  For the most part the guys that I hunt with dont have very good quality scopes but a few do have mid range stuff and very few have really good optics or even care.  That does seem to change at the 600 yd line but few shoot there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/31/2010 at 21:35
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I do not own anything that you can buy at WAL-MART. I learned the hardway about cheap optics along time ago...........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 00:07
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We are collectively maligning what we euphemistically call "hunters" scopes.  To me these are cheap scopes for people who do not know any difference between good and bad optics.  Someone who goes to the range once year and hunts with a Trasco or Barfka or equivalent is not a hunter, they are an amateur! 
 
My group of "Hunters" that I used to hunt deer and small game with were all machinists, tool makers, engineers and they did not shoot junk.  Several of them were European born and all tended to use Conquests or Kahles American series scopes.  Many of the American born men in our group shot rifles equipped with Leupold Vari XIII, Nikon Monarch's  or German optics. 
 
The cheapest scopes that I use are a Redfield Illuminator and Leupold VXII Rimfire.  About half of my scopes are four brands: Zeiss, Swarovski, Kahles and a new Minox.  I am a "hunter" and spend at least parts of two days a week at the range nearly year round, weather permitting.  I do not shoot in any sort of competition any more.  I did shoot pistol competition years ago but my eyes have failed and I have to use a scope.
 
The people that I see at the club range during the week fit mostly into three catagories: Military/Sniper types, people learning to shoot a pistol for defense and old guys like me with good, solid, medium to high cost rifles and decent scopes (mostly Leupold VX3's).  Maybe becase it is a club and not a public range, the mix of people is somewhat different then at a public range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 01:22
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Let's just say they used to be happy with them. After looking through a couple of mine, they got the itch. That itch had to be scratched. The least scope that any of my buddies uses now is a Bushnell Trophy. Most are now using 3200 and 4200's, Monarchs, Sightrons, and a couple of Vortex's. One feller (he's wealthy) uses an IOR after I got him to look through one. A couple of Zeiss' and a Swaro. One Kahles, and one feller that owns ten Leupolds. Things have been difficult for him at camp for the last couple of years now. I suspect he may break soon.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 07:34
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Scopes to me are one of those things that you put into it what you want to get out.  If you invest a whopping $39.99 at Wallyworld, you get out of it maybe that.  If you invest $500 in a nice conquest or equivalant. you do get that out of it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 08:15
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Buy the right scope for the right application,Buy once.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 08:16
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Originally posted by Average Joe Average Joe wrote:

Buy the right scope for the right application,Buy once.
Cry once
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 08:33
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

Originally posted by Average Joe Average Joe wrote:

Buy the right scope for the right application,Buy once.
Cry once
The wife does the crying when she gets the cc statement.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 09:41
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We should take a collective step back and define our terms more clearly.  "Junk" and "cheap" are not, in my estimation, synonymous; however, there is a correlation much of the time. 
One case in point: Counter Sniper optics will sell you a $6000 titanium scope - and it is pure garbage - but far from cheap. 

As I said previously, if 100 yards is your max shot, there is no need for a $3,000 scope.  That, and you find no Wally World scopes at 1,000 yard matches, not because the shooters are too proud, but because the gear isn't up to the task.

The one statement made previously, about how the gap in quality between cheapest and best is now smaller, I could not possibly disagree more.

If all you need a scope to do is magnify the target some and not lose zero badly, sure, most scopes will do that.  If you require a scope that will spin up from a 100 yard zero to an 800 yard shot and make a hit on the first round, and spin back down to zero accurately, few scopes will do that.  True, at 100 yards, image is fine on a less expensive scope, but I've seen more than one spike or button die because the optic and/or shooter couldn't resolve boy from girl.

I'd love to find a $100 scope that will do what a Hensoldt will, but have yet to find even a $1000 scope that will.  Does everyone need a Hensoldt, absolutely not!  But, by that same token: does everyone need a Tasco Silver Antler: hell no - I'd rather use a slingshot!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 09:54
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I agree Jeff. What I think people mean is that the scopes of today (even the cheapies) are better optically than many of the scopes from years back. That doesn't account for the fact that the higher end gear is many times better.
It is just gimmicky double talk, that is aimed at people for spending money that they can't or won't spend. You know make yourself feel better, by bringing others down.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/01/2010 at 10:36
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

We should take a collective step back and define our terms more clearly.  "Junk" and "cheap" are not, in my estimation, synonymous; however, there is a correlation much of the time. 
One case in point: Counter Sniper optics will sell you a $6000 titanium scope - and it is pure garbage - but far from cheap. 

As I said previously, if 100 yards is your max shot, there is no need for a $3,000 scope.  That, and you find no Wally World scopes at 1,000 yard matches, not because the shooters are too proud, but because the gear isn't up to the task.

The one statement made previously, about how the gap in quality between cheapest and best is now smaller, I could not possibly disagree more.

If all you need a scope to do is magnify the target some and not lose zero badly, sure, most scopes will do that.  If you require a scope that will spin up from a 100 yard zero to an 800 yard shot and make a hit on the first round, and spin back down to zero accurately, few scopes will do that.  True, at 100 yards, image is fine on a less expensive scope, but I've seen more than one spike or button die because the optic and/or shooter couldn't resolve boy from girl.

I'd love to find a $100 scope that will do what a Hensoldt will, but have yet to find even a $1000 scope that will.  Does everyone need a Hensoldt, absolutely not!  But, by that same token: does everyone need a Tasco Silver Antler: hell no - I'd rather use a slingshot!
I don't think it can be said much better than that. Nice work R C. Excellent When you start cranking on turrets, everything changes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2010 at 07:17
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My buddies hunt with Leupolds (a Rifleman, or a VXI if he's feeling really spendy...), and Vortex (Crossfire & Viper).

Now at the range... that's another story.  Tons of Tascos, BSA's, and NC Stars.  I always scratch my head when I see them obsessing over their reloads, & talking endlessly about what they've done with/to their rifles, and see them with a tacti-cool BSA in cheapo mounts.  These guys usually setup with their bore-sighted scopes at the 200 yard line, & blast through 3 boxes trying to get on paper.  I'm not sure if it's more comical, or more sad.

One guy looked through my Conquest, & said, "Man, Hell!  Those things cost $3000!".  I didn't have it in me to disabuse his notion.

I can't look down my nose at folks, though.  I know there are legions out there who've taken more game with a .30-.30 and iron sights, than I'll ever see in my lifetime.  If it works for you, GREAT!

But... if you're happy with what you've got... FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, do NOT go and look through anything more expensive!!!!!

FC
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i see more simmons around here.
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Originally posted by Folically Challenged Folically Challenged wrote:

But... if you're happy with what you've got... FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, do NOT go and look through anything more expensive!!!!!

FC
     Laugh Above     Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/02/2010 at 11:02
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But... if you're happy with what you've got... FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, do NOT go and look through anything more expensive!!!!!

If you do, you're in trouble!!!!It's hard to go back!
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