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do I get a scope?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 11:55
paraclyte View Drop Down
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1.  I admit I know very little about guns.  I would even admit I know less than very little.
 
2.  My son has just moved to Montana and plans to spend a lot of time this summer in the mountains where there are a LOT of BIG bears. 
 
3.  He asked me to buy him a gun for Christmas.  After educating myself the best I could on the internet, I am buying him a Browning BAR Safari Rifle 031001331.
 
4.  He will not be using it for hunting but for defense against bears.
 
Question:  Do I put a scope on it when I buy it?  (Please give me reasons to do so or not)
 
2nd Question:  If I do, what scope do I buy?  (Please give reasons for your recommendation)
 
 
Thank you for helping me with this. 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:00
tahqua View Drop Down
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A .338 BAR is a fine gun. For close in work I would want 1-1.5x on the bottom end. The choices are many. What is your price point?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:08
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Perhaps a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4 X 24 would fit the bill nicely and offer some illumination without the need for batteries. It is fiber optic and Tritium "powered". You don't have to utilize a scope either. A good pair of iron sights is fine (and faster to acquire) at close ranges.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:35
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If he is not familiar with firearms, It would be a good idea for him to find someone that can show him the basics or better yet, have him take a class.

 

 

I would also use top quality ammo too and the best thing for him to do is get familiar with his gun which means practice, practice, practice and did I mention practice.

 
PS: I would forget about the scope, use the iron sights and buy ammo to practice with.
 
 
Eagle


Edited by EAGLE - December/31/2011 at 12:42
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:44
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Thank you for the advice.  As you can see by the gun I am buying, I am more concerned about quality than saving a few bucks.  So, I have not thought about a price point.  Just want good quality for the money.
 
Another poster suggested just using the sights on the gun for acquiring the target faster.  What do you think about that?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:46
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Welcome to Optics Talk. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:47
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I certainly agree about a class and practice.  I will spend the money to buy him plenty of ammo for practice.
 
I have never used a board like this before, and I want to say I really appreciate you guys giving me your thoughts and treating a "newbie" with respect.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:51
tahqua View Drop Down
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Back in the late seventies I used my .06 BAR with irons for several years. I took a few deer that way and it worked okay for hunting. It sure made for a nice carrying gun. Irons are fine for your intended purpose. You can always add a scope. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 12:55
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We all were newbie's at one time, heck....I still need advice because I haven't done everything and many heads are better than one for sure.Big Grin
 

.338 and .375 H&H  will definitely take care of a bear and I would get something with iron sights myself.

 
Also regardless of caliber size, shot placement is key so he needs to learn where vitals are. 
 
PS:
 The reason I suggested iron sights is because there is less to go wrong and you did mention that you know very little about guns so I assume your son knows very little too since he didn’t specify what he wanted.
 

I can’t tell you how many times that I go to the range and see people having problems with scopes because they didn’t know anything about them (me being one of them at one time).

There is proper mounting, maintenance, adjustments, etc with scopes, forget one thing and it is a game changer.

I have to get so I don’t have time to go into more depth and I’m not trying to scare or confuse  you, but at this point, The KISS rule should be used and iron sights are the simplest.

Lot of very knowledgeable folks on this site that are willing to help.

Good Luck on whatever you decide and I hope your son stays safe.

Eagle


Edited by EAGLE - December/31/2011 at 13:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 13:07
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by paraclyte paraclyte wrote:

I certainly agree about a class and practice.  I will spend the money to buy him plenty of ammo for practice.
 
I have never used a board like this before, and I want to say I really appreciate you guys giving me your thoughts and treating a "newbie" with respect.

Glad your here! 

Heck, I'm still learning too. I don't think anyone on THIS forum would publicly state "I've arrived!" 
We've had a few come through over the years that inferred that they were the Alpha and Omega of all things firearms related, but they didn't last long and got booted, or exposed and popped smoke on their own accord.    


Edited by cheaptrick - December/31/2011 at 13:08
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 15:09
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The rifle is definitely a fine choice for going into bear country. But 338 on new shooter is not good for a lot of practice! I agree that irons are very fast, even more so when you are comfortable and used to them. Maybe the best purchase to get him used to shooting might be a 22 as well. 

I know the first gun I ever shot was a scoped 22-250 at the age of about 5. While not considered a big kicker, at 5 I weighed about 40lbs, and that scope bit me. Needless to say I didn't see the need to have a scope on a rifle until after I got out of the Marines.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 16:23
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I like the idea of using iron sites as well.  Doesn't look like that gun comes with iron sites.  Does it?  I'd like the idea of something with a shorter barrel as well. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 17:10
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http://swfa.com/Aimpoint-Micro-H-1-Red-Dot-Sight-P42449.aspx
These are the three I would recommend for the BAR. The Aimpoint takes batteries, but they last forever. The SS also takes batteries, but its reticle is bold enough to stand out really well even without the illumination. The Trijicon, well that illumination is always on, and it doesn't need batteries.
 
Out of all three, the aimpoint is arguably the fastest on target. All three will take a beating and laugh at it.



Edited by billyburl2 - December/31/2011 at 17:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 20:51
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What part of Montana?  I hunt a lot in central and southwest Montana, and occassionally northwest MT.  I hunt in griz territory plenty.  Maybe it is just from growing up in it, but I am more scared of the mountain lions here than bears, and I have run into plenty of bears.  I would not worry too much about scope or no scope.  Either way you just have to practice with the gun to be proficient with either the scope or iron sights.  If you do get him a scope, stay low power on it.  1-4, 1-6.  The Minox 1.5-8.  Good low power, and decent high power for hunting.

On a side note, the gun I carry when just hiking in griz country (beside my handgun) is a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun 45/70 with open sights.  Fast easy handling and with the sights I use, easy to pick up and naturally aim.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/31/2011 at 21:12
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If I was gonna be on a horse I would just have iron sights.   A 45-70 makes me feel comfortable. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2012 at 17:11
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Let me just say a couple of things.
 
 That gun is not cheap to feed.  That is not  a small gun in terms of recoil.  You need to think about making sure the stock fits him well and about recoil reduction.  You should think about a recoil reducer in the stock. 
 
Montana is a big open space, but I have to ask aquestion? At what distance is the bear a threat?  200 Yards? 50 Yards? closer? Further? See at 100 yards or less a 12 gauge slug is a valid option.  The recoil will be around the same level depending on gun and load.  The ammo wil be easier to find and often cheaper.  Since bears can be nocturnal... You can get a flashlight forend for the shotgun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2012 at 18:29
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Well I was born in Montana and all my life I have been told that the minimum caliber in bear country is  30-06.  I have two boys who are both well over 6 ft both Air Guard soldiers and neither of them much cares to shoot the  300 win mags I have given each of them they are far happier with a 30-06 or .308 recoil wise. I will say that a semi auto can be a nice choice in rifles for some things but they need to be maintained more than a bolt or lever gun.  I am more inclined to think a new shooter will be happier with a stainless bolt action like a Tikka in a 30-06 which has less recoil half the expense less weight so a fellow will drag it along and the stainless with synthetic stock seems to take a lot of abuse.  I use a Tikka stainless synthetic in a 300 WSM more than most of my other rifles because it is light easy to carry and has plenty of power.  I do have a 375 H&H though and a 45-70 lever action. As for semi auto I dont think a 3 round mag would be much to jump up and down about compared to a La Rue OBR 16 in barrel rifle or a Springfield Armory SOCOM which have 20 round mags in .308 that way when you are pissing your pants because you missed the first three shots you still have something left to give the bear. Using a bolt gun slows you down but it also can allow more time to think and aim and can be simple and effective. And the 45-70 guide gun Marlins seem to be a solid choice  also made in stainless.  As for scopes I would prefer a Trijicon due to its illumination always being turned on.  I did however recently put an aimpoint on my 45-70 Guide gun. If he had more experience with firearms the .338 would sound like a more solid choice.   For an experienced shooter I would say HKM77RSPHHM  Ruger Alaskan 375 Ruger would be a dandy one to consider stainless with iron sights .
 
Trijicon 1.25-4x24 Accu-Point Rifle Scope Red Triangle Trijicon 1.25-4x24 Accu-Point Rifle Scope
Stock # - TR21R
  • Matte
  • Red Triangle
  • 1"
  • Eye Relief (in): 4.8 - 3.4
    Eye Relief (in): 4.8 - 3.4
$764.95 


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/01/2012 at 20:51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2012 at 20:38
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I hate to sound like a broken record on these bear-protection threads, but the OP should consider getting his son bear spray and a suitable holster ( like fhf gear's molle compatible holster) for protection in bear country.  Bear spray has a better record on grizzly attacks than firearms ... much better.
 
Smith and Herrero did a detailed historical review of bear spray vs. firearm use.
 
 
They found bear spray was effective in preventing any injury 92% of the time.  50% of those using firearms for defense were still injured.  Injuries sustained in attacks where bear spray was used were less serious than those in firearms-involved incidents as well.
 
That is a big difference.  I am a native Montanan as well, and I have been lucky enough to encounter a bunch of grizzlies.  I had one issue with a bear years ago while maintaining trail near West Yellowstone, but came away unharmed.  I have had far more conflicts with moose than bears.  I confidently carry bear spray in grizzly country.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2012 at 20:45
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SHHH  I just want to suck them in close enough to get a rug out of it. Devil
 
True Bear Spray is a good choice but I know I would feel a lot better with a rifle. Most people have absolutely no idea how much your aim deteriorates under extreme stress so the more bullets the rifle holds the better I like it


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/01/2012 at 21:09
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2012 at 21:33
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Good thread.  Having never had the pleasure, I would think the training should be "What to do if you encounter a grizzly in Montana".  I've been shooting firearms a long time and believe I would instinctively turn to my weapon.  I haven't used a spray can since I painted some horseshoes a few years ago.  I'd probably be so nervous with a spray can that I'd shoot myself in the face. Whacko
 
I'd like to take on a Griz with my .475 Linebaugh! Dirty Harry
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2012 at 23:24
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I would go with the Guide gun 45-70 and maybe a holo sight .....and bear spray
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/20/2012 at 10:52
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me too i would go with 45/70 Sharp Shooter

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