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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2004 at 17:58
arro222 View Drop Down
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I need to drop some coyotes at night. My Simmons scope I cannot see thru worth a darn. I cannot see the reticle at all. Do I need an illuminated device or a better scope. Preferably stainless to match my rifle would be good. Distance is 40-60 yards. Moonlight only.I have a $400 limit if i need to spend that much.

Edited by arro222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2004 at 16:25
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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for 40-60 yards, i DO NOT want a silver scope. i use a 2004 VXII 4-12x40 with the FD, i have very good vision, so it may be hartder for other to make out the retcile, but i would look at a VXII 3-9x40, or somthing smiliar. for 40-60 yards, i would get a heavy duplex, and might look at a illuminated VXIII. what kind of gun might i ask???

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2004 at 16:27
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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dont mind me, look at a 2-7x33, or 1-4x20 VXII. also, check out the leupold VXIII's on the sample list. i beleave they have the 15.-5's for 399.95

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2004 at 18:33
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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If you are just using 50 yards, why not triple 000 buch and a shotgun with an

dot sight?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2004 at 18:37
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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well, i think that you can see better in low light at a distance with magfnification, than you can with none, and if im not mistaken, the coyote can see the dot somewhat.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2004 at 18:38
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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ohh, might i add, you have to fool with batteries, and everything else.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2004 at 09:44
arro222 View Drop Down
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It is a 22 hornet. (Ruger) I prefer not to use a shotgun for the noise factor and I need a vision assist because my eyes are not good. I know your concern about the color of the scope. Its an aestetic thing with me to have a laminated stock with stainless barrel with stainless scope. Real pretty. Hopin the coyotes think so too.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2004 at 15:04
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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you might be able to get em closer than that with that pretty gun. i know i love my remington 700 lss 300 ultra. and i think a matte scope would look better on it.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2004 at 18:15
arro222 View Drop Down
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Ya know Cory, if that rifle of yours has a synthetic black stock, I am in complete agreement. A matte scope on a black synthetic stocked stainless is the way to go. I tried my buddies matte scope on my rifle. Way too many colors going for my taste with that laminate stock on my gun.

 

Lou

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2004 at 20:26
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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NOOO, my LSS is stainless barrel, and laminated stock, the "grey, and black", but i think it looks green/grey/black, but you know what color im talkin about, and it looks aweosme on it. do a search on gunbroker.com and look the the remington LSS's, you'll see what i mean, the picture on remington.com isnt very good. and i have a crocodile hide sling on it.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2004 at 23:29
arro222 View Drop Down
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Yup, I see what you mean and why a matte scope goes w/that gun. It certainly picks up the color of matte black within that stock and compliments it nicely. My stock laminate is brown so it gets more complicated for me or else I"d buy that Elite 4200 1.5x6x36 and be done with it. I knew I should of bought the Browning A-bolt I was first looking at. It was the cutest darn rifle to kill a coyote I'd ever looked at. I think it must of been their micro hunter. This gun looked like you could carry it around like a comb and it was blued so it woulda had the Elite on it already. Ever look through a Sightron? They have a fully multi-coated 3x9 for $230 or maybe the 4x40 Swift makes in stainless.If they made the 4x40 Nikon Monarch in stainless I'd buy that or the 4.75 Grandslam. I make myself crazy! I guess I gotta buy several scopes and look through them at night under the moon so I would have an excuse as I went mad and started howling. Hmm, might make the coyotes come.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2004 at 14:12
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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i have a stainless remington model 7 with a brown laminate stock, and i took the silver scope off of it, and put a matte one on, and i like it alot more.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2004 at 14:54
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Getting back to coyote hunting. If magnification under low light conditions were that big of an advantage swat teams would use them instead of dots. Eye glasses work with dots. Animals, even canines retinas do not register in the red frequency range-thus hunter orange- and that is why it works (and the glare from their eyes in a camera flash is usually green). Try Hornadys 35 gr VMax with 12.5 grs of 296. Im getting around 3000 fps out of my CZ Hornet. and 2400 fps out of a Tauras Raging Hornet. I can appreciate the noise difference though- one of the things that make a hornet nice. However, you can defeat this by using electronic ear muffs, unless of course you don't want anyone else to hear either. Are you using a taped calling unit with battery powered speakers or a squeaker or luck of the draw?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2004 at 15:40
arro222 View Drop Down
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My chickens seem to call them in when they are in the area. I get whacked by them every 5-8 months lasting about 2-4 weeks. This state allows predator shooting at night if your livestock is in jeopardy. You have to show proof of damage which I already have. Short of keeping a red spot light on all the time, I needed a vision assist. I saw first hand what the V-max can do to a yote from the 22 Hornet. It looked as if it was shot with a 22-250 and it was what made me buy one. It made a hole in it's side you could put a child's fist through and dropped it right there.The ambient noise was another factor. PS ( I thought swat teams used night vision devices in the dark)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2004 at 17:29
redneckbmxer24 View Drop Down
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stick with the mattte, and use a clear low power scope, once again, a leupold VXIII form the samplelist 15.-5 is what i would use.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/05/2004 at 17:38
arro222 View Drop Down
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Thanks for your input Cory, I will certainly mull over your advice
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/06/2004 at 10:58
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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I'm wondering if you might be confusing a laser spot dot with non magnified device that works like a scope but has a dot in it instead of cross hair. (I have left a Tasco multi-dot on for 6 months at a time with out battery failure and the new Doctors shut off when you put the cover on). Swat teams use what ever tax payers will buy them (which includes periscope mirrors from Wal-mart). Are the coyotes coming in singles or more, do you have forest back drop, how deep is the grass and bushes around the chickens. Do they use the same approach. How mechanically sensitive have you trained them.? (Have they become accumstomed to the closing of doors and where are they monitoring your movements-most dogs will scout an area prior to a hit).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/06/2004 at 11:44
arro222 View Drop Down
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I can't pin-point their approach as it has been different. I should of started shooting them years ago and gone hunting for them in earnest as I am about to do now. There is plenty of forest around me and hence the problem. This is a case where I am going to have to experiment. I have come around to Cory's way of thinking and going to purchase scopes in matte. This gives me a larger selection of low power scopes. I will first purchase an Elite 4200 1.5x6, a fixed 4.75 Weaver Grandslam and a 4x40 Nikon Monarch to see which scope is going to perform best for my needs. I might even throw in the Sightron low power line. If anyone is interested in my experiment, I will get back to you. I know I will have to deal with a store that does not have a restocking fee as I will not keep the rest of these scopes. I was hoping an optics forum might save alot of work, but then again, I never gave anyone a direction toward brands I am now contemplating. Dale, thank you for your input. Most of the time they are alone. I have seen as many as three together and quite a few times in pairs. Low power scopes should help with multiple shots if I get so lucky. A farmer friend shot 7 coyotes out of 8 in the pack. He was 200 yds away shooting from his bedroom window with a 243. They would just mill about as their buddies were dropping.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2004 at 14:47
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The Leupold 1-4x20 shotgun scope would be perfect because its parallax is set for the range you are shooting and it has a heavy Duplex reticle that shows up nicely in low light.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/07/2004 at 23:16
arro222 View Drop Down
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Chris, this is where it gets confusing for me. As you and others have stated, the ability of a scope's low light performance has more to do with lens quality and coatings as opposed to objective sizes. That being said, I am having trouble with a scope of 20 mm, doing as well seeing in the dark as a quality lens scope of 40mm's. I need to see at dark. I also need to see the reticle and hence your advice of heavy duplex.I do not mean to sound doubting or unappreciative and apologize if I am appearing so. I am simply puzzled and feel badly about questioning a person who has looked through them all. I suppose I should of given you my criteria and simply stated, "Chris, send me the right scope for what I need to do in my price range"
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2004 at 06:53
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fwiw,
I'd suggest a Leupold VX3 2.5-8x36 with a PR 4a Reticle. Has THE ticket on calling Fox the past few years...

Regards, Matt.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2004 at 13:05
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You do not have to have a large objective lens to hunt in the dark.  You do have to have a 7mm exit pupil (or close to it, depending on your age).

 

Exit pupil is the amount of light your scope emits out of the eye piece.  Hold your scope at arms length and you will see a circle of light on the ocular lens, this is the exit pupil.  The pupil of your eye can only take in a maximum 7mm's of light when it is completely dilated and of course your pupils dilate when it gets dark.  Because the exit pupil changes with power, we need to know how to determine when it is 7.  This is done by dividing the objective lens size by what power the scope is set on.  IE; a 3-9x40 set on 5.7x will have a 7mm exit pupil (40/7=5.7).  A 3-9x50 set on  7.1x will have a 7mm exit pupil (50/7=7.1).  This is why many optics makers offer a 6x42 scope or an 8x56 binocular.  Because you are shooting at such a close range I assumed you would be using a lower power to do so.  The 1-4x20 Leupold transmits perfect light on about 3x which also gives you a super wide field of view allowing you to engage multiple targets quickly.

 

The most important aspects of a good low light scope are glass and coatings not objective lens size.  The only advantage to a larger objective lens is that it will produce the magic 7mm on a higher power.

 

What power do you mostly shoot for these 40-60 yard moonlight shots?  Take that power and multiply it times 7 and that will tell you what size objective lens will work best for low light shooting.  Matt's suggestion is another very good one, you get a larger objective, better glass and coatings and can use it on a little bit higher power.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2004 at 21:20
arro222 View Drop Down
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Chris, I think I understood this before but I thank you for bringing it up again. I may be asking too much of this scope. Its not so much a factor of light going through an exit pupil but more of a lack of light being allowed in the exit pupil. I know some European scopes are 56mm large at the objective an rumors abound that these scopes work under ambient starlight which I find hard to believe. I am assuming that higher powers make low light images clearer and thus the large objective. I do not have enough experience, nor knowledge of how a good scope operates under these conditions. I am assuming even the best of the 40mm scopes will not allow vision in pitch darkness so I figured there may be a scope that allows vision of reticle ( which seems to be a bigger problem than seeing the target) and target under some moonlight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that situation (moonlight) seemed to me to be the only slim chance of using a riflescope to aid in hitting a target (especially in my price range) otherwise they woudn't of had to invent night vision devices. I hope I have caused no consternation for anyone especially you Chris as I am also sure this subject must of been brought up 10000 other times. Thank you for your patience in dealing with someone who can over analize a situation and make his mind into one big knot. I wish money wasn't so expensive. Crap, that 2.5x8 Leupold comes in silver. I think I need to be taken out into the moonlight and shot
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2004 at 09:42
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While the physical parameters of the device allow for an exit pupil of 7mm the human eye can rarely use more than the light allowable at 5mm. A physical limitation of the Iris and surface area of the fulva. Scopes do not "gather light" from any source, they simply transmit it. A "night scope" has highly reflective coating on optical fiber tubes that can act as wave amplifers. A larger objective simply transmits more light. This same trick is used to amplifie and focus the X-Rays into mass of He to trigger hydrogen bombs. Using the same scope at night in the desert and in a forest will not give the same results. There is not enough light, bouncing around (ambient light) in the later case. If the ambient light in back of the target is not high enough you will not see the outline of the target (let alone any features on the surface of the target) regardless of what scope you use. (in this case the military would change the electromagnetic spectrum to something they could read an option you don't have). A suggestion -use your chicken area as the light source, circle the dogs and shoot from the forest.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/11/2004 at 09:54
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As Dale mentioned, "Scopes do not "gather light" from any source, they simply transmit it."  The term "light gathering" is often used incorrectly.  You are correct with your statement, "higher powers make low light images clearer and thus the large objective".  this is where the (controversial) twigh light factor comes into play.

 

There are better choices for your situation but they exceed your budget.  Get the lowest power, highest quality scope you can with a heavy plex or illuminated reticle and you will be fine.

 

Also try using a red spot light, fixed and aimed in the direction your shots will be going.

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