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Could really use some help/advice here! |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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Posted: March/21/2012 at 08:48 |
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Your shots seem to have moved opposite of which they should. If you go from a droop compensated to a non-compensated mount you should be shooting higher. Have you run out of scope adjustment?
I have run some Leupolds on some heavy springers, Webley Patriot and RWS 350 Magnum, and have not run into any problems. Leupold told me all of their scopes air springer rated.
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Doug
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Novusordo
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/11/2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Hi there, yes that's what I thought should happen.
I havn't touched the scope dials since it was sent back from Leupold USA, but I did look at it through the bathroom mirror and both images were lined up over one another so I guessed that they did optically centre the scope before shipping, however the scope may not be mechanically centered, maybe? |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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I would get centered on target and see where you are. You may not need droop compensation. Yet, I should say.
Good luck and get back with your results if you would.
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Doug
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4568 |
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Even if the scope was zeroed before you sent it in to Leupold. I would expect that you would have to re-zero it after it came back from them. |
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Novusordo
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/11/2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Ok just took the scope off the gun and went about counting clicks and
found that the windage clicks were the same as before I sent the scope
to Leupold - 328 clicks, but the elevation was wound down all the way to
the bottom, most likely to relax the spring tension during shipping.
The weird thing is, when the scope arrived back I immediately looked at
it through the mirror and found both reticle images to be perfectly
super-imposed upon one another which made me assume that Leupold had
mechanically centered the scope for me before shipping back however the
elevation turret was wound all the way to the bottom... how then, did
the mirror trick reveal two perfectly lined-up images? Is this some sort
of Leupold wizadry where they optically zeroed the scope but not
mechanically???
Another weird quirk is that my first 8 counts of the elevation turret produced these figures, 236, 245, 251, 234, 240, 249, 220 and 235, owing to the now unreliable "feel" of when the clicking actually ends, but then on the 9th count (yes I know I'm very thorough with all testing ) revealed a total click count of 300. That's a whole 49 clicks more than the second highest click count I performed. Now before the scope went to Leupold for strengthening the elevation click count was 334. I wonder what figure I'll get if I count yet again? All this quirkiness concerns me quite a bit. I just want repeatability and reliability, and for the god damm thing to make sense to me for once. I hope tomorrow morning my POI will be significantly closer to my POA and not a ridiculous 7 inches low bullsh*t like earlier today! p.s can a mod delete my previous post as I couldn't find an edit button! |
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Brad4213
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/26/2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Status: Offline Points: 188 |
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Gotta have like 50 points before you can edit your own posts. Then "Edit Post" will appear in the post options button. |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4568 |
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Just wondering how are you going to zero your scope? Are you thinking that the mechanical center of the scope your POI and POA should be the same? |
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tahqua
MODERATOR Have You Driven A Ford Lately? Joined: March/27/2006 Location: Michigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 9042 |
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I am missing something here. What does looking through the reticle at a mirror show? I can't connect a mechanically centered reticle having something to do with being superimposed over the reflection in a mirror.
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Doug
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Novusordo
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/11/2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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No sparky, I just want the scope centered BEFORE I zero it.
tahqua I did suspect the two methods are not quite the same, but wasn't 100% sure becuase there's so many places on the internet which describe the two methods as able to achieve the same effect. That being said, when I click the turrets, the image in the mirror does change to reflect the clicking that I just did. I'm just wondering how Leupold managed to click the elevation all the way down yet still have both reticles line up with each other in the mirror... any idea? By the way I just counted the elevation clicks for the 9th time and read 333 and when I clicked back 176 clicks, both reticles looked perfectly lined up in the mirror, so I guess 333 is the correct elevation click count for my scope. I guess the newly installed duel erector spring has disrupted the clicks becuase before the work was done I remember the elvation turret had perfectly positve stops at each end, but now they feel sloppy. I'm going to try the method of centering the scope where you rotate the scope and see if the x hair moves in an arc or not. |
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Brad4213
Optics Apprentice Joined: January/26/2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Status: Offline Points: 188 |
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I am sooooooo lost on this mirror thing.
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Urimaginaryfrnd
MODERATOR Resident Redneck Joined: June/20/2005 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 14962 |
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Dont suppose you are over thinking it do you?
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"Always do the right thing, just because it is the right thing to do". Bobby Paul Doherty Texas Ranger |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4568 |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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I dont get any of this either. Who cares where it is at. Just mount and zero that thing and shoot it. I have never once worried about all this mechanical zero stuff. All my scopes still work just fine. The only place it really matters is when it is mounted on your rifle.
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helo18
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: December/02/2006 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 5620 |
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Just do your count once, divide by 2, click back that many and call it mechanically zeroed. Then stick it on your rifle and see what happens. Then let us know.
Never heard of this mirror things, and don't see the point in it. Mount the scope and see if it holds zero and is repeatable with the clicks. That will tell you far more about the scope.
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Novusordo
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/11/2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Ok tried the rotating scope trick and the reticle x hair kept on point all the way through a full 360 rotation so I now know for sure that the scope is 100% mechanically centered and I'm now just waiting for first light to have a go at zeroing. I'm bringing my other mount along with some photo negative. I want to use the mount that gives me the closest POI before any scope adjustments are made, and I want to use the photo negative shim as much as possible before using the scopes adjustments.Wish me luck!
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Novusordo
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/11/2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Here's the results
Note that all results were taken with absolutely NO adjustment clicks were made to the scope during this zeroing session, and the range was 25 meters for all 6 groupings. 1st grouping: droop compensating mount with silencer 4" low and 1" to the left - MASSIVE difference from yesterday! 2nd grouping: droop compensating mount without silencer 1" low 3rd grouping: standard mount with silencer 6" low 4th grouping: standard mount without silencer 3" low conclusions so far; my rifle definately has barrel droop to quite a high degree, and my silener drops my POI by 3 inches which is normal. SO far so good, then! 5th grouping: droop compensating mount with 3 layers of photo negative rear shimming with silencer BULLSEYE - absolutely perfect correlation between POA and POI, zero has been achieved! 6th grouping: droop compensating mount with 3 layers of photo negative rear shimming withOUT silencer 3" high, so very nice reliable repeatability with silencer on and off - good stuff. Finally the scope is zeroed nicely and without the need to adjust it at all, but the real test of it will be whether or not the scope has held it's zero over tonight and will be on target tomorrow when I go to test again. This is something the scope could never do before it got strengthened by Leupold, so I'm very nervous to find out if the duel erector spring system they installed has helped at all! |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4568 |
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Just wondering how do you hold your scope when you rotate it? And why use photo negatives as a shim when you could just do adjustments with the elevation and windage knobs? |
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Bitterroot Bulls
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: May/07/2009 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 3416 |
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I am with you Sparky, this thread has me a little confused.
I have been thinking of the rotating scope thing, and it would be tough to do without the scope pointed at a target at the same range as the parallax setting, I would think. I would much rather have the scope adjusted a little off mechanical zero than shim a base. |
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-Matt
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3_tens
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/08/2007 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7853 |
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The only way to get mechanical zero is to count the total clicks and count back by 1/2 of the clicks. This is mechanical. Break that mirror it is causing you to much confusion . This will not sight the scope only put it to mechanical zero. You then fire the rifle at a known distance and dial to your point of impact. Mirrors will have you seeing double.
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Folks ain't got a sense of humor no more. They don't laugh they just get sore.
Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow Now the rules have changed again. |
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Novusordo
Optics GrassHopper Joined: August/11/2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I should of calrified better. You place the scope on to a sturdy wooden box with V's cut in two sides to allow the scope to sit in to it then place an object where the crosshairs are pointing at, then rotate the scope slowly a full 360 degrees and check if the crosshair remains on the object. If it does, the scope is truly mechanically centered, if it does not, then you must fine tune the turrets. And the reason I'd rather shim than adjust for 3 inches of elevation is to keep the erector system in the strongest and most stable position possible, which is very important when on top of a high powered springer like a HW80 (beeman R1). I read shimming scopes on one piece mounts is just fine, but on two piece mounts you risk tube crimp. Anyone know if this is true? |
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