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Cooper + Schmidt & Bender Zenith

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 04:27
tturner6 View Drop Down
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Greetings and Salutations!  I posted this in the rifle scope area also.  Please excuse the double dip but I am at my wits end!

I have an interesting problem that is fast becoming a nightmare to me.  It's interesting as I have never seen this before and a nightmare due to the amounts of money having been laid out for rifle, glass and ammunition.

So, here's the rundown.  Brand new Cooper 54 in .260 Rem.  Of course it came with the shot verification card from the factory that had 3rds within the same 9mm hole.  Great.  Looks awesome on paper and I know barring a TON of good luck, I could never duplicate that.  I am however a sub moa shooter out to about 600m so I feel like I can at least get 3 rounds into a 1" with any kind of ammo the gun even halfway likes.  So, welcome to issue 1.  I have 5 kinds of ammo for this (all factory offerings) but Cooper's shot group is hand loaded (which I have no access to here in Germany).  What I have shot so far is:

Federal 120gr Nosler BT
Federal 140gr SGK
Remington 120gr Accu-Tip
Remington 140gr Core-Lokt
Nosler Custom 125gr PT

None of those would put 3 rounds in a 2in circle much less a 3!  Hence the reason this is being posted here instead of elsewhere.  I am starting to lean to maybe there is an issue with my S/B Zenith in 2.5-10x56mm LP #4. 

3 of us finished our German hunting course at the same time.  We all bought different rifles but we all bought the same glass mentioned above.  1 of my colleagues has since sent his glass back to the factory 3x for reticle issues.  Another of my colleagues has had an issue where he's not getting full vertical traverse on his reticle.  He can only get 13 clicks but he's not totally dissatisfied as it allows him to shoot his 200gr+ .30-06.  Now enter my problem.

I pulled this glass off of my -06 that I was convinced I had ruined the barrel in (water in the tube from a snowy day).  It still shot ok but nothing like it had for the last 3 years.  I went from .5MOA to 1.25MOA at 100m.  Like I said, I was originally convinced it was the gun until my friends started me thinking that maybe it was the glass? 

Now, with the new rifle I am experiencing some of the same issues.  I have shot the same ammo on 2 different occasions from 2 different types of platform.  1 sandbag and stool and the other with a bench, shooting bag and a solid rest.  Results were basically identical which leads me to believe, I am not the problem Loco





Need some expert advice on whether anyone believes this could realistically be the glass?  It would be cheaper initially for me to send the glass about 2hrs away from where I am at than it would be to send the rifle back across the pond to Montana (but that's the next step if I can't get satisfaction from having the glass checked at the plant).

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 05:53
stickbow46 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
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Have you tried putting one of your friends S&B on your riffle? Do you have another scope you can use for testing purposes?
 
You might want to take the Cooper to a good gun smith & have the barrel lapped,you might have a little rust in the groves!
 
Keep us in the loop....Good luck
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 05:59
tturner6 View Drop Down
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No, not really wanting to introduce potentially other problem scopes into my murky waters!  I have a glass I can slap on there to check but it's a pita to jerk it out and off it's tack driver Sad  Gonna go out to my favorite gun shop and rummage around in his trade bins and see if he's got something worth trying out tomorrow.  If it doesn't shoot tomorrow, I may very well send the rifle back to Cooper and the glass back to Schmidt/Bender and cover all my bases...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 07:57
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
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Take the rifle out of the equation.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 10:01
tturner6 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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"Take the rifle out of the equation."

Meaning, exhaust all my options with it first before I test the glass?  Or the rifle ain't the problem? 

It's either the glass or the shooter?  I've had 2 other shooters behind the rifle and so far, they have carded similar weirdness. 

Not sure I am completely tracking your thought processes completely ;)  I can see the end result but not sure the steps in between?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 16:09
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Try some other ammunition. Factory ammunition is never as accurate as hand loads can be made to be.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 16:15
Thundey View Drop Down
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My vote is to try a different scope on the rifle, or take the scope off the rifle and mount it on another known tac driver and see what happens.  I'm guessing it could be the glass, or possibly in the mounts/bases.  Have you triple checked to make sure the rings and bases are nice and tight?  I have seen similar oddness happen when bases/rings were shifting around ever so slightly.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2011 at 16:43
trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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I say swap the scope off the tack driver, and the scope off the cooper. You can test both variables at the same time. If the tack driver shoots poorly, you know the scope is a problem. If the cooper shoots well with the other scope, you know it's not the rifle. If it doesn't you know the rifle is a problem. I had a similar problem on my rifle, when the scope started sliding through the rings. Everything was tight, but the cheap rings were not enough to hold the scope securely. Your mounts could also be the source of your problem.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2011 at 04:00
8shots View Drop Down
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All above advice is sound and good.
 
The answer lies in eliminating the variables.
 
So you think it could be the scope or the rifle.
 
Eliminate the scope by using your tackdriver scope. A pain I know, but it has to be done.
 
Sending the scope or rifle or both away will just be more confusing. It is a known fact that some returns are just dusted off and checked a little bit and then send back. So maybe your scope comes back checked as OK, but it is not. Then you doubt the rifle, which it most probably is not.
 
Eliminate the scope and the mounts first. Then talk to us again.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2011 at 08:50
ccoker View Drop Down
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Yep
Agree with the above 100%
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/12/2011 at 12:08
tturner6 View Drop Down
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Well, tis the season to NOT be taking the scope off the tack driver.  100kg Keiler I killed yesterday would most likely have agreed to your suggestions but alas, I didn't see them in time :)

I pulled the scope off the Cooper.  Well, my gun shop guy did.  He loaned me a new VX3 and slapped it on and said he'd shoot it and see if he could verify the problem in some way.  (Part of me died when he slapped a Leupie on it but that could have been brain cells from all the Scotch this problem has forced me to drink!)  I should have some sort of independent results by Friday after we get to the range.

On a side note, S/B replied to my email Monday and said this:

Dear Mr. Turner,

 

Yesterday we received an e-mail from our subsidiary, .i.e. Mr. Mark Cromwell in order to get into direct contact with you.

 

After thorough discussion with our Service Technician, Mr. Klaus Görzel today we would like to comment as follows:

 

It is hard to say (on distance) what the main issue is and if it really has got to do with the scope itself.  However, Mr. Görzel

highly recommends to send the scope directly to our German factory and preferably with print-out with these pictures.

 

You may feel free to send the scope to following address together with a covering letter and your complete address,

telephone number etc.

 

Schmidt & Bender GmbH & Co. KG

After Sales Service

Am Großacker 42

D- 35444 Biebertal / Fellingshausen

 

 

Best regards


Klaus Görzel                 i.A. Sabine Brandt
After Sales Service       Office

 

Schmidt & Bender GmbH & Co. KG

Am Großacker 42

D- 35444 Biebertal / Fellingshausen

 

Phone:    +49 64 09 81 15-0

Fax:        +49 64 09 81 15-11

E-Mail:    info@schmidt-bender.de

Internet:   www.schmidt-bender.de

So, I am going to hedge my bets I think.  If the Cooper shoots with the Leupold, the S/B has a place to go.  If it doesn't, I am going to send the rifle/glass off and then corner a buddy of mine that's 5hrs away for handloads...  What a cluster this is....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2011 at 18:53
ccoker View Drop Down
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sorry to hear about all your trouble

I am sure you will get it all sorted out
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2011 at 00:33
tturner6 View Drop Down
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The S/B is back.  Certified from the factory to be free of any known issue.  They even replaced my dented turret caps!  Gods bless German efficiency.
 
Shot the Cooper with a Leupie on it Friday night at dusk.  It was only 50m but I had a neat little triange of about .75".  My gunsmith touched up the crown as per Cooper's recommendation.  I am going to mount the S/B on it today and drag it out to the range on the morrow to see if I can do a bit better at 100m with a bench, bags and some hand jobbers.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for shooting over the hood of a Landrover Defender 90 if the situation is called for.  However, that added some variables to my previous equations that I can eliminate Big Grin
 
I'll keep ya'll posted.  Just trying to fight the good fight now with a newborn in the house, I just haven't had as much time as I previously had... 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2011 at 07:12
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Sounds like this maybe coming to an end, I hope all checks out right.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2011 at 17:43
Horsemany View Drop Down
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Any update on this? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2011 at 15:11
RifleDude View Drop Down
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Make sure your front base screw on your front mount base isn't a tad too long, causing it to contact the barrel threads.  This kills precision.  If it is, simply grind a bit off the end of the screw until it isn't making contact anymore.  Check to make sure the forend channel isn't making contact anywhere along its length starting about 1" forward of the receiver.  Coopers have a minimal float gap between wood and barrel.  Check action screws to make sure they're snug.  It's more important that the front screw is tighter than the rear.  Make sure your muzzle crown hasn't been dinged.  Skim bed the stock inletting if necessary.  Coopers come pre-bedded, but it's possible yours got sub-par bedding.

To really test your rifle's inherent precision, you really need to handload.  Test bullet seating depth starting from just kissing the lands and work progressively inward in about .01 increments with your seating depth until you find the sweet spot.  Size your cases so you have very little shoulder bump and you can feel tight headspace when you close the bolt.  You can also size the cases in a 7-08 die, then size in the .260 die to form a false shoulder at the neck shoulder juncture, working the false shoulder down until the case just chambers.  Of course, start out with a reduced powder charge first and work up to find optimal pressure for your bullet, COAL, and case size condition.

For the most part, factory ammo sucks canal water.  Sometimes you get lucky and find some that your rifle really likes, but most of the time, it isn't very hard to thoroughly spank factory fodder with halfway decent handloads.
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