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Consulting w/ local SWAT / Gang Unit

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2010 at 22:52
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medium PD have 30+ members of SWAT / GANG unit looking for outfitting URBAN wondering what weapons are practical for two 12-16 officer teams. 
 
looking for suggestions for 3 short range .308's... possibly a .243
 
and I am trying to see about SLUG guns for forceful takedown of barricaded or BP Glass Penetration probably 2x mag. tops...
 
Price range is limited to less than 1000 per scope I have suggested 4-12 variable...whinning and complaining when suggested 3-9 or 4x / 6x fixed...
 
Again open for any suggestions Conditions are -10 to 120F rain / snow / they will be abused.
 
They are not very well trained admittedly and will be starting from ground up most of them have a few with 20+ years that add a lot but are not the primaries for rifles.
 
vs AR's got some hand me downs from FEDs that they are doing decent with...wondering suggestion for CQ I know what is used in mil but not Civi LEO wondering why they have anywheres from red dots to open sights to barska/ nc star...  Am looking at standardizing with less than $400 per...
 
Thank you in advance...
 
 
 
 


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - January/05/2010 at 22:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/05/2010 at 23:52
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Two  12 to 16 officer teams
I would want two bolt action rifles  per team and I would go with the .308 R5 Mil Spec rifles which have been refinished by Walter Birdsong after having Smith Vortex Flash suppressors added and  Badger Ordnance Rings and bases that makes them rust proof forever.  I would use the Trijicon 5-20x50 mildot with green illumination.  They may use the 20 on the range but 5x is where they will be working more of the time. Instead of bitching they will be going "COOL" (The 4.5-14x40 Mk4 is standard in LE.)
 
I would also equip two to four officers on each team with DPMS 16 in LR308  rifles with La Rue mounts and 3-9x42 Super Sniper scopes or alternatively a 2.5-10x56 Trijicon with amber post (their stuff will all be under a hundred yards anyway) the other really good choice would be compact ACOG's .  Of the rest of the team half should have shotguns with  a http://swfa.com/Trijicon-1x42-Reflex-II-Dual-Illuminated-Sight-P11307.aspx and half should have  M4 style AR-15s with http://swfa.com/Trijicon-15x16-Compact-Acog-Rifle-Scope-P4828.aspx  second choice for the AR optic would be a Aimpoint Comp M4s.  Cheap red dots just wont do the same thing.  One possible is when Super Sniper comes out with a low power illuminated variable that would be a good one also if the military doesnt get all of them.   Police deal with problems at night an illumination makes a big difference.
I think that when we are talking about dealing with gangs it is really important to have some shotguns because of the intimidation factor - Ive had occasion to pull handguns rifles and shotguns on bad guys and shotguns gain the most compliance.  If possible semi auto Benelli M1 Super 90  12 ga riot gun with pistol grip.
 
To tell you the truth it would be nice if the whole team was using .308  or .243  DPMS 16 in barrel rifles with the 2.5-10x56  amber post Trijicon or ACOG's  but you would never get a city to sign off on that I dont think.  Law Enforcement engagements are usually under 70 yds and you dont need a lot of magnification at that distance something in the under 6x is fine and I carry a 1.5x  or a 3x compact ACOG.  The problem is that Law Enforcement has to be accountable for every bullet they fire where the military seems to avoid some of that oversight.  I think better one .308 that will take a bad guy down than multiple shots from a .223  The M4 style 16 in DPMS rifles feel almost the same weight as a .223  /  5.56mm  and are very accurate.  Most agencies however are moving more and more toward .223 so I say if they insist on .223 go Rock River and use 77 gr SMK from Black Hills. It really depends more on what the city fathers will allow because my idea is use less ammo that is more powerful and take the bad guy down right away before he hurts lots of people.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 00:58
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I know the trend in LE is toward using M4 style AR-15s as patrol rifles but in reality it would be far better if about one in every three cars had a 20 in barrel .308 bolt action with a fixed 6x Super Sniper scope in dual dovetail Leupold rings to keep it simple and cheap. 
Case in point the big shoot out in LA the effective hits were made with bolt action .308s and the .223 body shots met armor and did not stop the bad guy.  Sometimes you just have to have the ability to make a head shot especially in a hostage situation.  The tendency of guys who start learning rifles with a semi auto is to waste too much ammo.  Those of us who started with a single shot 22 learned to place our bullets correctly.  While there is definately a need for some high capacity rifles there is still a need for bolt actions and I'd like to see more of them with a detachable high capacity magazine.  Accuracy International makes some ten round mags for .308 and Badger Ordnance makes bottom metal for Remmington to accept those mags.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 07:36
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My local LE SWAT is slowly switching to the PS90 for there warrant team and QC Front team

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 10:27
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

My local LE SWAT is slowly switching to the PS90 for there warrant team and QC Front team

 
Interesting information.
 
I have found the 5.7 fired from my PS90 to be just as accurate as my M4 chambered in 5.56 even at 300 meters.  Of course I SUCK and have almost no training.... so take that with a grain of salt.
 
The PS90 is 50x more convenient to aim, store, operate, handle, and maintain than the M4.
 
Of course LEO can get the better ammo options that civilians are not permitted to purchase from FN.... so that makes it a pretty darn lethal weapon.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 14:35
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http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn00-e.htm
Most of the worlds sniper rifles listed large and standard cal.
Duce  Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 15:15
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what about 6.8 ARs with a 1-4 scope?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 15:26
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Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

what about 6.8 ARs with a 1-4 scope?


Good suggestion, considerably more power than the .223, but won't have as much over penetration power as the .308.  Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 15:38
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Our LEs keep it simple since an department armor would have to go school. Select Fire Colt M4s (burst, semi, auto) are $780 for LE agencys which makes it very practicle and cheap.  Remington 870 shotguns and 700 LTRs in 308 (more 700p models in service but most are leaning toward LTRs now).  If they are going to one of the more popular training classes for police snipers (Chandler's class at Blackwater) LTRs in 308 would certainly be what they would recommend.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 15:40
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12 man team -
3 - PS90s
2- AR's 223
2- Ar's 308
2 - Benelli M2's
2 - Remmy 700's in 308 with the trimings
1 - Barrett 50
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 15:59
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I dont think you want a 50 in an urban enviroment. Even  300 WM is frowned upon.  Unfortunately most decisions are based on cost.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:06
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But you may need to disable an engine!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:12
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I'm liking the idea of one 300 wm per team using the Navy's sniper cartridge for the gang bangers wearing body armor.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:16
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

I'm liking the idea of one 300 wm per team using the Navy's sniper cartridge for the gang bangers wearing body armor.
 
The fifty will take care of that and some!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:20
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That is true. Can you imagine the write ups about overkill though? Then there's the pass thru. Not to mention the mess.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:21
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Shoot from an elevated platform where pass through would hit'em in china, lol.  I think the lawyers would be on board dont you? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:24
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Well, if it will get them out of Washington...... A 50 cal it is then. Back to the trial, and out of politics.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:24
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Incenary rounds too!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:25
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there is no reason that any leo sniper needs to have a 50bmg for a sniper rifle. if they killed some innocent bystander 1/2 a mile away because of a stray 750gr bullet all hell would break loose. imo they dont need anything bigger than a .300wm. on rare occasions i could see a .338 lapua. the .308 is easy and cheap to shoot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:29
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Chief Sackscratch

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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

there is no reason that any leo sniper needs to have a 50bmg for a sniper rifle. if they killed some innocent bystander 1/2 a mile away because of a stray 750gr bullet all hell would break loose. imo they dont need anything bigger than a .300wm. on rare occasions i could see a .338 lapua. the .308 is easy and cheap to shoot.
 
I agree, though i do remember a show on A&E called DALLAS SWAT or somethign that they used a 50 to shoot an eighteen wheelers motor to disable it because some crazed man highjacked it and was holding women hostage inside and it worked to stop him from driving off.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:33
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Really, a 50-cal in an urban setting?
 
To disable a car engine?
 
A Howitzer will also disable a car, and the intimidation factor there is tremendous.
 
Or a Cruise missille!
 
 
I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned carbines in 45ACP or even SBRs in 9mm.
 
It's hard to beat an H&K UMP 45 for up-close-n-personal.
 
I agree there should be long guns but probably not too many.  As for the .308 ARs, not sure what I think of that. Semi-precise 308 rounds travel far!
 
 
Ted is LE, I am military, we think in different terms, so I'll defer to Ted's recommendations here.
 
Of the LE snipers I've known and shot with, most want or need lower power than 5X, the tunnel vision that accompanies taking these shots is made worse by a narrow FOV.  I'd go for a 3X or 4X bottom end.
 
Leupold is fairly standard and most departments will shell out for Leupold. There are usually better options, but keeping with standard equipment can help with training continuit and in the court room. ("Your secret squirrle sniper with high-precision rifle and speciality scope shot him in the head when a leg shot would'a done the job...")
 
I would avoid 6.8SPCs, the ammo is variable (sometimes hard to find, especially in small towns) and the best accuracy comes from hand loads - then you get to explain to a jury why commercial wasn't good enough and you didn't intend to introduce unnecessary pain and suffering.
 
For CQB, Aimpoint, Trijicon, EoTech is the best game in town - military or LE.  Some shooters will prefer one over the other, I'd give them some freedom to choose what they think they can best employ.
 
Get the teams together and demo a few options, see what is liked and disliked (optics.)
 
 
I'll respectfully disagree with the above post on a .50 for the teams. 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 16:48
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

That is true. Can you imagine the write ups about overkill though? Then there's the pass thru. Not to mention the mess.

I was working on getting some heavy weapons for SWAT here, legal counsel killed it.  He was even on our side, but ended up with the assessment that there was no way to justify even SWAT having that kind of firepower.  We already had a test and training program set up.  No go...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 17:54
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Rather than playing amateur hour with folks whose lives would be on the line,
why not stop re-inventing the wheel, and have your novice cops call on professional cops who do this already.
Fort Worth PD training division.  They worked through this decades ago.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 18:30
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Just FYI, they approached me and I responded to their request.  Not my job to do their homework...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/06/2010 at 21:35
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Des Moines Metro uses some Ar-15's with compact ACOG s with the illuminated crosshair and some bolt action Remmingtons even a couple of left handed ones.  I prefer the R5 Mil Spec because its stainless but you have to put a finish on it to cover the appearance.  Im still thinking a couple of .308 DPMS  16 in rifles with Trijicon  2.5-10x56 scopes makes a lot of sense to suppliment the bolt guns. Im  still thinking half the entry team should have shotguns and half M4 style semi auto only AR-15's
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