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Conquest: mil-dot or rapid Z 800?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2009 at 12:47
fireroad View Drop Down
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Thinking of buying a Zeiss Conquest 4.5x14x44.  Would be used for hunting and target shooting out to 600 yards. I was going to go mil-dot, but the rapid Z looks interesting. Which would you choose for a 243 win? What if it was a 300 WSM?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2009 at 12:50
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rapid z 600 would work if 600yds is your max range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2009 at 13:25
fireroad View Drop Down
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I would rathe the z600, but Zeiss has decided (for whatever reason) not to  put them in the 4.5x14's
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2009 at 18:15
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I'm new here and don't bring any great experience or wisdom with me...but after I spent a lot of time a few months back researching mil-dots and their use in ranging and speedy shot adjustments, I told myself I would never get a mil-dot scope without having .1 mil click adjustments also. 

Mil-dot scopes with MOA adjustments just seem wrong, like a peanut-butter & tuna sandwich instead of peanut-butter & jelly.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/20/2009 at 19:05
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Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

I'm new here and don't bring any great experience or wisdom with me...but after I spent a lot of time a few months back researching mil-dots and their use in ranging and speedy shot adjustments, I told myself I would never get a mil-dot scope without having .1 mil click adjustments also. 

Mil-dot scopes with MOA adjustments just seem wrong, like a peanut-butter & tuna sandwich instead of peanut-butter & jelly.


LOL, you are correct...mil-dot with MOA adjustmets makes very little sense...but it must be what people want because that's how most manufacturers sell them
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/21/2009 at 09:03
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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its not rocket science ---cross systems aren't any harder to work with than same systems. if your using a lrf and not ranging with reticle it matters even less, even then it's just a mental conversion much like converting feet to yards. Also if using a hold over reticle the need for dialing in becomes even less important. If your going to start using some type of hold over reticle its nice to have hash marks -- the more hash, (which mildot doesn't give you) the faster the shot (at least in the sighting component of the cycle) but the question is when does the reticle get to busy. an advantage to some of the reticles  is the windage hold offs are built in for each range. zeiss, swaro, leo hold over reticles usually use a sight in range of 200 yds. Rarely does the poi coincide with a even integer range, (100,200,300 etc) even when the reticle is optimized by reducing the power.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 14:24
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I agree. All this hype over mil-reticles and mil clicks isn't that important unless u're gonna click to a particular dot.
 
I have a 6-18x Nikon Buckmasters mil-dot on a rig i use for prairie dogs, and i simply calculate elevation in inch per hundred yds. for clicking the 1/8th IPHY turret and calculate windage via mil. reticle.
 
Clicking to a particular dot is an option though since this type of reticle is a "repeating interval reticle", such that each mil.-unit is 3.6 IPHY, and u have 5 (or 10) of them equally spaced to work with. Unlike a ballistic or BDC reticle where each unit of subtension is a different measurement, and would be difficult, if not almost impossible, to click to if u didn't memorize each unit of subtension and the click division required (something that's never done).


Edited by sscoyote - August/22/2009 at 14:32
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 15:11
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Of course mil/moa can be done, it's been done by people for a long time...but why make it harder?  You have to admit speed and efficiency heavily favor mil/mil scopes.

I love math, but unless I'm at home goofing around with it, I'd rather do as little as possible.  I think having one unit of measurement is best for simplicity.  Heaven forbid people have stress and limited time instead of a nice day on a range.

I remember one time trying to put slugs in my Benelli in Iraq, I was already stressed that day and we started getting random shots at us from a highway that runs close to the camp (about 200-250 yards from Camp Korean Village)...I dropped the first 2 or 3 and then got a couple in.  It would of been a lot easier to just slam in a magazine.

Even as a kid hunting squirrels and rabbits in Ohio I learned you might not have time to get the shot off the way you want to. 

In case anybody wonders about the slugs in the Benelli, I saw pictures from the guys who went out to stop the non-sense on a HMMV and both of my slugs connected with the old mini-van but no bad-guys....slugs are awesome even with Ghost Ring sights.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 15:15
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You have to admit speed and efficiency heavily favor mil/mil scopes.
No I don't your confusing ranging and holdover.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 15:31
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Could you explain that more for me?

To me it seems way faster to set up a shot with mil/mil....whether the ranging was done crude with the scope or better with a laser.  Having a laminated card on the buttstock that had drop and wind in mils to the tenth would be a breeze.

If I see it is -2.3 mils can't I just use the second mil-dot down and do 3 little clicks on the elevation turret?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 15:41
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Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

I'm new here and don't bring any great experience or wisdom with me...but after I spent a lot of time a few months back researching mil-dots and their use in ranging and speedy shot adjustments, I told myself I would never get a mil-dot scope without having .1 mil click adjustments also. 

Mil-dot scopes with MOA adjustments just seem wrong, like a peanut-butter & tuna sandwich instead of peanut-butter & jelly.


I LIKE peanut butter and tuna...  (my wife says I am "odd"... go figure)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 16:21
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Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

Could you explain that more for me?

To me it seems way faster to set up a shot with mil/mil....whether the ranging was done crude with the scope or better with a laser.  Having a laminated card on the buttstock that had drop and wind in mils to the tenth would be a breeze.

If I see it is -2.3 mils can't I just use the second mil-dot down and do 3 little clicks on the elevation turret?
 
Roger That.   I like the first focal plane mildot 1/10 mil cliks of the 3-9x42 Super Sniper.  There is however the issue if it is a hunting rifle of do you really want tactical / target knobs.  A lot of guys have bought balistic reticles in the last couple of years without a good understanding of the fact that most of those reticles are in second focal plane scopes and just like field of view gets wider edge to edge as you decrease from maximum power the distance between the marks on the balistic reticle will represent different measurements  at different powers.  So in effect the hold over balistic reticle marks on most scopes only work at the highest power or some point close to the highest power.  The down side to having a really high power scope with balistic reticle is that when the sun starts to go down and you need to brighten up the scope by dialing the power back to about 6x your balistic reticle becomes worthless.   With a FFP first focal plane scope you can use the mil dots as hold over marks and since the reticle changes size and appears to grow smaller as you decrease the power  the distance between the dots is a constant mil  or 3.6 inches at 100 yds.    Since deer etc usually are out early AM or late PM in low light something like a Leupold FX3   6x42 with long range duplex seems to be about an ideal hunting scope because  42mm divided by 6 power = 7mm exit eye pupil.  Since it is a fixed power the hold over marks are constant.   Hold over marks on any scope need to be verified on the range to be sure how closely they actually represent your selection of caliber and cartridge because every different cartridge has a bit different trajectory.  A scope like a 4-14 Rapid Z 800 can be a great scope if you intend to use it from a fixed position with a good rest and are not trying to shoot longer distances in low light.  A 3-9 x50 with a balistic reticle might actually be a better choice though simply because of the exit eye pupil of say a 9x divided by  50mm would be a 5.5  mm exit eye pupil which is fairly bright in low light.   and a 3-9x40 would have a 4.4 mm exit eye pupil which should be useable but not nearly as desirable as the 5.5mm exit eye pupil of the 50mm version.
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Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - August/22/2009 at 17:02
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/22/2009 at 18:55
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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f you have to set the shot up its already to late. ballistic reticles can be used on any power if the shooter will take the time to correlate the data. laminated card is already pasted in the reticle conquest with z800 ,diavari with z1000 dial in usually isn't even needed till after 700 yds.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/25/2009 at 00:23
fireroad View Drop Down
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Sorry guys, didn't mean for this to turn into a mil/mil vs mil/moa arguement.  I would be using mil-dot for holdover/holdunder only (maybe one day I'll learn to click and range) for quick shots.  I plan on spending the time at the range to see how the dots line up at different ranges at 6x for low light shooting and 14 x for snall 600 yards targets.
 
I've almost settled on a Conquest scope in ml-dot but then noticed the rapid Z reticles. I've read goodthibgs about them, but the 600 is not available in the 4.5-14. The rapid 800 looks a little busy so my questiob boiled down to...is the rapid 800 a good reticle for my application or should I stick with mildot?  If I go mil-got I will replace the hunting turrets with Kenton's.
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