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Optics GrassHopper
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I am going to replace the scope on my NEF 45-70, before next deer season, and I am looking for a compact 3-9x40 scope that I can mount forward of the hammer and lower to the barrel. Is there such a compact scope that has that much eye relief?

I want to be able to mount the scope low enough that I don't need a cheek rest added to the stock.
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  First off WELCOME to OT.
 
  Two things concern me.  First I'm thinking you may run out of eye relief somewhere as you increase magnification thereby getting a too small of an image view.  Second with the scopes that have a constant eye relief(at least 4"which I'm not even sure if that will let your idea work)the ocular ends of the scopes are very large in diameter which will limit how low you can mount the scope.  I sold my last Handi-Rifle a while back or I could have tried a few scopes. 
  Unless some other ideas are posted the only one I can think of right off would be for you to maybe consider a fixed power scope. Chambered in .45-70 your not going to be shooting at long distances.  I believe there are variable power scout scopes available with up to 8" of eye relief but I don't know what their magnifications max out at or even if one would work.
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Thanks for the welcome and info.

I attempted to measure the eye relief needed and it looks like about 8" is going to be what it takes.
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  That's kind of what I thought. Your into the scout scope catagory now.  Of which I found exactly two variables being offered.  One I can't recommend because I've never handle any of their optics.  There are fixed power ones that are 2.5x.
 
 
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Welcome to Optics Talk and.....

GO GATORS!!  Yippee 


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Stupid question... will a handgun scope work? I found a Burris that would be exactly what I am looking for.

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Welcome to Optics Talk and.....

GO GATORS!!  Yippee 




Thanks. Go Gators!
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Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 
  First off WELCOME to OT.
 
  Two things concern me.  First I'm thinking you may run out of eye relief somewhere as you increase magnification thereby getting a too small of an image view.  Second with the scopes that have a constant eye relief(at least 4"which I'm not even sure if that will let your idea work)the ocular ends of the scopes are very large in diameter which will limit how low you can mount the scope.  I sold my last Handi-Rifle a while back or I could have tried a few scopes. 
  Unless some other ideas are posted the only one I can think of right off would be for you to maybe consider a fixed power scope. Chambered in .45-70 your not going to be shooting at long distances.  I believe there are variable power scout scopes available with up to 8" of eye relief but I don't know what their magnifications max out at or even if one would work.
45-70 is NOT a short range caliber...
 

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.

The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.

The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.

The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.

The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.

The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.

SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY ANGLES OF ELEVATION

1,000 yards 1,500 yards .45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34" .45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4" .45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"

VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS

Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"

Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.

At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.

The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.

The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.

The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf af

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 18:27
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I so happy to see another Gator fan on this board, I didn't read the question.  Bucky

What $$$ budget are you giving us to work with? Is a red dot, (Aimpoint) an option? 
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I was hoping to stay under $350 - $400. I think I may just skip all the extra work and get a regular old 3-9x40 & live with the cheek rest.
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

[QUOTE=300S&W]
 
  First off WELCOME to OT.
 
  Two things concern me.  First I'm thinking you may run out of eye relief somewhere as you increase magnification thereby getting a too small of an image view.  Second with the scopes that have a constant eye relief(at least 4"which I'm not even sure if that will let your idea work)the ocular ends of the scopes are very large in diameter which will limit how low you can mount the scope.  I sold my last Handi-Rifle a while back or I could have tried a few scopes. 
  Unless some other ideas are posted the only one I can think of right off would be for you to maybe consider a fixed power scope. Chambered in .45-70 your not going to be shooting at long distances.  I believe there are variable power scout scopes available with up to 8" of eye relief but I don't know what their magnifications max out at or even if one would work.
45-70 is NOT a short range caliber...
 

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.

The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.

The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.

The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.

The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.

The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.

SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY ANGLES OF ELEVATION

1,000 yards 1,500 yards .45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34" .45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4" .45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"

VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS

Mean Mean Mean Horizontal Vertical Radius Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1" Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"

Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.

At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.

The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.

The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.

The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bot

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Originally posted by ufgators68 ufgators68 wrote:

I was hoping to stay under $350 - $400. I think I may just skip all the extra work and get a regular old 3-9x40 & live with the cheek rest.
  
 
 
   I agree.  I'd consider a 2 to 7 due to the larger field of view at the low power end plus it's more compact.
 
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Thanks KB for a great article,what a pleasure that was.
 
Welcome to the OT u-68!
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Thanks for the help, y'all. Now back to my regularly scheduled lurking...
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