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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2004 at 23:34
aardvarkslayer View Drop Down
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I've been considering buying a super sniper scope for a while now to replace my old 6-24X blurry tasco.  I will only use the SS on my .22-250 for 100 yd sight-ins and up to 600 yd varmint shots.  My average shot on woodchucks is usually around 200-300 yards, but I would like to double that range soon.  I have a couple of questions...1.  Which power?  I've grown to really appreciate my 24X scope because I can see woodchucks hiding in tall grass from over 300 yds away, whereas people hunting with me with 3-9X Leupolds can't see a thing.  I've heard much good talk on this forum about the 10X SS scope.  How can you see these small animals at any distance over 300 yards in any sort of cover with only 10X?  I've been considering the 16X scope as the better choice.   2.  I've looked at mil dot tables ( http://www.chuckhawks.com/mil_dot_table.htm )and really have come to realize that they work great for man sized target rangefinding, but for a woodchuck that's 9" tall, if he covers 5 mil dots, he's 50 yds away... if he covers only 1 mil dot, he's 250 yds away.  Not too helpful since now I would have to try to divide that last mil dot distance into fractions in order to estimate any range over 250 yds. So really only the first three mil dots will ever be of any use to me.  Does anybody have any advice or experience with this issue?                              The choice is between the Elite 4200 6-24 or this SS scope...regardless, I will be buying one of these scopes from this site.  I just really like the target knob features for both windage and elevation and the cheaper price of the SS. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2004 at 12:38
Chris Farris View Drop Down
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Using a quality 10x scope is 100x better than using a P.O.S. 24x scope.  Its all about the resolution.  Since you have experience shooting 24x the 16x SS would be my suggestion should you go the SS route.  The inherit disadvantages caused by a small exit pupil (dark image and critical eye relief) can be overcome by using a variable power scope, a fixed power scope is just that.

 

It is tough using mil dots on small objects.  When I am shooting small objects at long range I forget about the mil dots for ranging and use a Leica 1200 (who am I kidding I use the Leica for big objects too), but still use the mil dots for hold overs.

 

I feel the Elite is better suited for your needs because of its variable magnification.  It has target knobs, just not big ones.  The mil dot is calibrated at 12x on this scope which is a lot better than having to use it on the highest power setting like a Leupold has to be done.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2004 at 12:14
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Thanks for all the advice Chris.

I have a couple more questions. 

1.  I don't understand your sentence: The inherit disadvantages caused by a small exit pupil (dark image and critical eye relief) can be overcome by using a variable power scope, a fixed power scope is just that.  Is it saying that variables overcome  the small exit pupil problem, or is it saying that fixed powers overcome the small exit pupil problem?  Also, what is the exit pupil on the SS scopes?  It isn't listed.

2.  How are the target knobs on the bushnell 4200?  A major reason I was interested in the SS is because of the nice target knobs.  I would like to start rangefinding with the mil-dots and then dialing in the proper elevation with the target knobs when I'm varmint hunting.  I have the basic trajectories of the bullets I shoot memorized.  Does the elevation target knob on the bushnell have the MOA markings on it that the SS does?  From the pictures, I can't really see any lines or numbers on the knobs. 

          I really hope that the bushnell doesn't get blurry when I get up to 24X.  Well, thanks for all your help so far Chris.  I hope I'm not overloading you with questions.  Have a good day.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2004 at 12:35
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A fixed power scope will have a fixed exit pupil.  A variable power scope will have an exit pupil that varies in size with the changing of the power.  To determine exit pupil simply divide the scopes objective size by the scopes power.  IE: 16x42 SS would be 42/16=2.63mm exit pupil.  A 6.5-20x50 Leupold would be 50/6.5=7.69mm on the lowest power and 50/20=2.50mm on the highest power.

 

The target knobs on the 4200 are crisp and repeatable.  The only advantage to the SS knobs are the huge size which makes them easier to read and adjust in the field.  The disadvantage to the SS knobs is that they are always exposed, the Elite's knobs have covers.  The Elite does have the markings required to make moa adjustments in the field.

 

The Elite won't be blurry on 24x just harder to use than it is on 6x because of the tiny exit pupil, but thats the beauty of a variable....it can change along with your shooting position and conditions.

 

Don't worry about the questions....that's what we're here for.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2004 at 12:50
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Wow, I never thought you  would reply not 20 minutes after I wrote.  Anyways, It's looking like the bushnell is the scope for me.  One final question...  what base and scope rings do you  recommend for the elite 4200.  It's a BIG, Long scope.  I want to make sure it holds tight.  Thanks for all the help.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2004 at 12:24
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If anyone has any suggestions please feel free to share them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/04/2004 at 23:58
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Your question is the age old one- precision or accuracy? Do I want to just hit the target or hit some place on the target. Assuming your guns are subminute of angle because you have turned the neck cases, selected primers from the same lot etc. the question that you have not over scoped the gun be be addressed. A variable scope offers the best of magnification and mirage. I shoot chucks at 600 yards and desert dogs at 1000 yards in Wyo. and Utah with a Nikon 6.5 X 20 target knobs, and 1/8 inch fine recticle. Using anything less would be just a guess. The 6.5 setting works great for the quick shot at a jack out the window if I can get the 28 in with bipod moving on time. Brownells makes a scope mount that is graded that is lower in the front and gives the required "lift" to the front of the barrel for one inch tubes. I prefer the Nikon as it seems to give more contrast than other brands, however I'm sure they are fine. I also use a 2 foot piece of black PVC pipe as a sunshade, and to knock down mirage. This scope has seen 4000 rounds of .223, 2000 rds of 22-250, 2000 rds. of 6mm. 2000 rds. of 220 Swift and 4000 rds of 6mmBR. It came with both target knobs and hunting knobs.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2004 at 00:18
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Dale Clifford you are a better shot than I.  I would need to mount the Hubble on a howitzer to hit a prarie dog at a 1,000 yards (if you mean coyotes by desert dog, I still couldn't hit one at 1,000 yards).  500 yards is about the absolute max for me on prarie dogs and I feel better about it if they are inside of 300.  Big game max for me is about 350 yards and I like it just fine if it is closer to 100 yards.

 

ranburr



Edited by ranburr
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2004 at 21:14
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Hey Dale, I have a question. Who's your gunsmith because I'm calling my friend, Bobby Hart, first thing in the morning to fire him. I"m dying to know who put together your heat seeking launcher. MOVE over Lazzeroni there's a new Sheriff in town!!!

Edited by Roy Finn
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2004 at 21:50
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aardvark, i think i would go for the 20x, but this is kinda a hard one, if your eyes good the 16 i think would work. and on to the next subject, dale you da man, your a better shot than i am too. and you seem to know your stuff, your a great addition to the board, welcome.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 12:05
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"One final question...  what base and scope rings do you  recommend for the elite 4200.  It's a BIG, Long scope.  I want to make sure it holds tight.  Thanks for all the help." - aardvarkslayer

 

Badger Ordnance makes the best mounts around and they have 20moa built into them like Dale mentioned.  What action are you using?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 12:10
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man, i need to start paying more attention to whats going on. you decided on the 4200 4 days ago, and my mind is still on the SS, my bad. as for rings, i agree with chris.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 12:15
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and dont forget that if you get the 6-24 with the 1 inch tube, your going to need the 30mm-1inch ring inserts if you opt for the badgers. but they are the sturdiest, but if you dont want to spend 140 on bases, and another 140 on rings, theres other great options otut here. but the badgers are well worth the money.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 12:54
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Chris, I'm mounting it on a Savage 12BVSS 22-250...So, it's a savage action.  Everybody recommends the Badger Ordnance rings, but I really can't pay that much for rings and bases.  Any other good alternatives?

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 13:27
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first of all, nice rifle. as for rings, you cant go wrong with the leupold standard rings. i like the one peice base the most. and a pair of the medium rings should work great. if you prefer weaver mounts, i think leupold PRW rings for the savage 110 will fit the 12bvss, but im not certain.

 

cory

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 13:29
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Like Cory said, the STD Leupold system is the best for the money.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/06/2004 at 22:36
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I do most of my own gunsmithing except for surface grinding and heat treating. Some of the old Tasco International bases and scope mounts are still the best, these provide a post and are usually one piece replicating the structural ridgity of the old Rem. 788's. Hitting a varmit at a 1000 yards is not near as difficult as shooting .270 to .330 group sizes done somewhat commonly by bench rest shooters. This is a type of platform shooting, the really good shooters Tubbs, and Leathem consistently hit rams off handed at 600 yards- and here you were worried about 350 yards. Incidently alot of these good shooters do not horizontally center their scopes but instead choose an almost 45 degree cant to put the cast off on the shoulder joint, then use a custom milled mount that literally centers the scope as much as 35 degrees clockwise , You should become involved in some competitive events, Metallic silhoutte, or my favorite the 3 gun event at the yearly Soldier of Fortune shoot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/07/2004 at 11:03
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The old Tasco mounts were made by a company name Lynx from Australia and they are now being sold under the B-Square name.  Very nice mounts, both rings mount to a stud and both rings are adjustable for windage.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/07/2004 at 22:54
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sorry Mr. Finn I did not receive the person mess. try again. A point should be cleared up here it seems. Varmit hunting is not a military exercise. The hardest part is cleaning the 4-5 guns during the shooting event of 200-400 rounds. This is approx 20 cleanings after each 20-25 shots. This is very doughnet intensive and if you get the white powdery kind your eyesight goes downhill about 11.30.- so be forwarned- if you have eye problems don't get the white powdery kind plain choc. crispy cremes should work just fine. Seeing a prarie dog at 1000 yards with a 20 power is not difficult assuming no one is out there running around dressed up like one, the real point is- it is a statistical thing. The rock to the right is definitely not a dog, and I don't care if the one I think I'm aiming at has a moustache or not. Even if you had a perfect rifle-load-scope combination- your hit ratio would never be 100%. On a really good day, at all ranges mine runs about 65 to 75% which is of course close (a 22 pistol out to 50 yds) etc. to far averaging. This is dead dogs to shots fired. The difference between using top of the line equipment and middle of the line (both prepared properly ) is less than 3% and bragging rights. Assuming mirage was not a major factor with powers above 20x the random errors inherit in this type of shooting will give correction within 2 standard deviations of the min. of angle spread at any usable range. This is why it is possible to hit paint buckets with a 4 inch 44 mag at 400 yards and yes with iron sights. Time to talk about random vs. systematic errors in errors in gun set. but first I have to go get a doughnut.
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