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Clean cold bore shot

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 09:31
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The other day I wanted to try out a new used spotting scope, so I grabbed a 300 Win Mag and set my target at 300 yds. It was a hot, humid, and windless day, a perfect day for testing this scope.
Accordig to my notes the scope was already set for 300yds, so I fired my first shot from a clean and cold bore. The shot was about 2" high and about 5" right. The windage was set about 2.75 minutes right so I made the correction and fired the second. Couldn't see it so I fired another expecting a group to form; nothing, did I over adjust. After several shots and moving the windage around, I finally saw a shot appear just outside of the target logo at the top of the target. My shots were about 3-4" high from my clean bore shot. After making the corrections the shots started landing where they were supposed to.
My point, There is a difference between a clean bore and fouled bore shot. I forgot this and based my following shots off my first shot which was off by several inches from the fouled bore shots. If this had been a hunt, it could have meant a missed shot or worse a wounded animal. Foul your bores.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 09:34
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good advise and experience for others to learn off of.  I forget that sometimes after I have cleaned my bores and i go back to paper.  Then remember. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 09:36
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At the school I attend one of the instructors was a scout/sniper.  He said after he cleaned his rifle he would always fire two shots out of it and then put it away.  He did not trust the clean cold bore shots either. 

With my original factory barrel, my clean cold bore shots were way off.  My cold bores were much better but still off.  With my hand lapped Lilja clean cold bore is about 1 inch low left and my cold bore less than an inch.  (all at 100 yards).  So the hand lapped tubes definitely make a diff.  I have read that cut riflings are even better for that, but I have no personal data to verify that. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 09:44
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Chief Sackscratch

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The only data I have on cold bore that i can use for comparison is my douglass barrel on the 300 win mag.  from a clean cold bore at 100 yds it is consitantly 1 high and 1 right  I don't like to put that gun up with a dirty bore because of the cost of the barrel but all my other guns get the same treatment that ST talked about hte instructor doing.  Doesn't matter they all get 2-3 fouling shots then put up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 11:29
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1400 rds, no cleaning, no break in ------ 300wsm cold bore same as hot bore.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 11:57
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There is a much to say about "cold shooter" as there is cold bore.

Do you ladies take a few trigger breaks over empty chambers prior to lighting off a live round?


In my humble estimation, for a precision rifle, you should know cold bore vs. warm bore - and always fire a round or 2 after cleaning, no need to track fouled vs.clean.

If you can't make a cold-bore 600 yard shot, who the hell cares what you can do on follow-up shots, the target has already fled the area or is calling in arty on your presumed position.  Either way, you lose big.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 12:48
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what about this. I dont have along range rifles. But my rifles that i shooot regulary I dont clean them to often just when ifeel they need it. But I do usually use a  boresnake after I get done. Now its not cleaning the barrle spick and span, neither is it putting any oil down it sjust removeing some of the powder and foul. To me it seems like it shoots more consistent cause its never really dirty but its never really clean. Would you all recommend the boresnake or just leave the barrel as is?

Edited by stork23raz - June/22/2010 at 12:49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 13:04
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A bore snake just cleans off the loose carbon.  I do the same thing on several of rifles, I shoot them a lot so I only clean when they really need it.  I just bore snake the rest of the time.  I have never had a problem doing that. 

Another instructor at the school I attend says he has never completely cleaned the bore of his precision rifle.  He says every 500 rounds or so he runs a patch or two with clp down the bore and they a bunch of dry patchs and that is it.  He has several thousand rounds down the tube and says it still shoots at good as it ever did. 

Other instructors clean theirs to bare metal each time they are done shooting it.  In this case I think there is more than one way to skin the cat.  And obviously from Dale's post above multiple ways seem to work just fine.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 13:34
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Thanks, I always wondered if i what i was doing was right, or if I had just been lucking out on the accuracy issue. I just always knew that u were not supposed to "shoot" with a clean bore
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 14:30
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no prefiring,dryfiring,cold firing, alibis in action shooting matches, you do it or you don't, from cold bore thru really hot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 20:06
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I never really thought about, any miss i have i always though
of as my error, never the rifle......but this is something I need to
investigate........I usually target @ 100 yds and rarely shoot over
300, 1/4" off @ 100 aint bad, but @ 300 that'd be 3/4", which ain't
bad either, but at a grand would be a miss......... I think cold bore
in sniper terms means if you miss your calculations just a smidgeon
you'd miss your first shot or cold bore shot, but then you could make
corrections according to where your bullet hit, then hit your mark......
In my opnion a long range sniper would have to know where all
his bullets are going wheither the 1st or 20th........
But at 1200+ yds I think the rifle is the least of your problems, I mean
@ 1200 yds range estimation is more cridical that shooting moa I think...
Well if you miss your range by 30yds you miss . target size is a estimation
at best, reading mills to the tenth or better is required, and there's a lot
of wind between here and there going in every speed and direction......
come to think of it, making a cold bore shot and hitting the target @ say
1500yds would be like trowing a ringer in horseshoes from a plane
flying a 5,000 feet in one try?????right????    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 20:55
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rangefinding with reticle can vary between 2%-5% of target distance depending on quality of equipment, sfp usually range best all things being equal because the reticle in ffp is magnified to a point it obscures part of the target, as both will be used on the highest power to gain the best advantage. Drop from elevation and distance is nothing more than physics, windage however is voodoo.



Edited by Dale Clifford - June/22/2010 at 20:56
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 20:59
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other problems that exist are loads showing extreme spread in the velocities, and station pressure changes over brief intervals of time in load development.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/22/2010 at 22:04
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I am starting to slowly move towards Dales idea (i am still not perfect about cleaning so I might as well just give it up anywho)...  Especially so I can grab and go and have 100% confidence...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 10:27
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I know it has been kicked around before, but I have found that using a consistent 'moderate' cleaning pattern has served me best. Of course, this is for field rifles not benchrest guns where one has the luxury of sighting rounds etc. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/23/2010 at 14:12
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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keeping a static level in any bore is difficult, which is what we are all looking for, cleaning interval times can vary by humidity as much as powder down the bore. Over bore relationships are another thing again, as are Moly coating, or boron. Usually during the life of the barrel there will come the dreaded cone of carbon just ahead of the bullets entrance, and this needs to be cleaned out. But it doesn't have much to do with a clean/ dirty barrel. It should be thought more of as obstruction , like mud --- but trying to restore a barrel to "clean" is chasing the wind.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/24/2010 at 10:17
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Great discussion all the way around. I got a kick out of John Barsness, who would rather have an un-anesthesized root canal than clean a rifle bore, so rarely encounters the clean vs fouled scenario. We did agree that  all rifles and bores and loads behave differently. My favorite old 30-06 demands a slightly "fouled" bore to settle into pattern, and is much less sensitive to heating up than an identical rifle of my Dad's.
 
In general though, it appears to me that most bores will vary impact to a noticeable degree between clean and "fouled". For patterning or in the field for hunting, Old Betsy always goes fouled with at least two rounds for me. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 01:21
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I clean as best I can, using chemical solvents for copper and carbon, rather then wire brush.
I use the Shooters Choice range of products and a cup of coffee to help pass the time!!
My cold bore clean barrel shot is within 1/2 inch of my other shots. If permitted by comptetion rules and time, I will always shoot a fouler or two, as it gives me more confidence. Failing that I will engage the closest targets first if possible.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 02:16
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I wonder how many who do clean their barrels often, truly know whether or not the bore is really clean.
The only way I can know if my bore is clean or if I got all the carbon out is with a bore scope.
Anyone else have a sure fire way for those who clean their barrels??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 07:57
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Biggest problem is that only about 6-8 inches at the beginning needs cleaning, but the methods used spread the dirty stuff thru the entire bore. All any one can say is that it was cleaner than when starting. First there needs to be a common definition of clean.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 08:12
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Originally posted by Ernie Bishop Ernie Bishop wrote:

I wonder how many who do clean their barrels often, truly know whether or not the bore is really clean.
The only way I can know if my bore is clean or if I got all the carbon out is with a bore scope.
Anyone else have a sure fire way for those who clean their barrels??
 
I did take my rifle to a competent gunsmith to check with a bore scope. This was after approx 1500 rounds. Found the barrel clean with very little copper or carbon present. He is a hard assed guy and would not have hesitated to chew my ear if (a) the barrel was dirty or (b) I was damaging the barrel during my cleanup process. He himself is a competive and good benchrest shooter.
He gave my cleaning process the thumbs up.Thunbs Up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 10:31
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Visual results from a bore scope don't directly correlate with accuracy, especially anything measurable. A shooter will deem his rifle accurate when the shots land within his call radius. When the shots fall outside the call radius (how good he knows he can shoot) the rifle or load is deemed inaccurate. Call radius varies with positon, and type of event and has the shortest time frame in pistol action shooting. One of the few concepts that span the entire spectrum of the shooting sports from shotgun thru handguns to prone.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2010 at 10:39
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Visual results from a bore scope don't directly correlate with accuracy, especially anything measurable. A shooter will deem his rifle accurate when the shots land within his call radius. When the shots fall outside the call radius (how good he knows he can shoot) the rifle or load is deemed inaccurate. Call radius varies with position, and type of event and has the shortest time frame in pistol action shooting. One of the few concepts that span the entire spectrum of the shooting sports from shotgun thru handguns to prone.



Agreed!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 13:21
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I recently bought a REM 700 SPS Tactical AAC in a 308.   After shooting it in I cold bore shot a 3 shot group you could easiliy cover with a dime at 100yd.   The next 3 shots were exactly 2 inches right from where the other group hit.  They too were able to be covered with a dime.   For the life of me I could not think what I did different and it kept nagging at me until I realized the first 3 were cold bore - clean bore. 
After doing some research I ran across this forum and decided to try an experiment.  I shot 3 shots cold and clean, 3 warm, 3 cold and not cleaned, and 20 in a row.
 
Results are as follows:
Cold and clean 1" high - 1" left  and 1 MOA group
Cold and dirty 1" high - .5 left and .5 MOA group
Warm - x mark .5 and .5 MOA group
20 shot group cold barrel and dirty x mark to 2" high and left with various groups of accuracy but overall about just over a 2" group
20 shots warm (post 3 shot group) x mark to 1"high/right with better overall subgroups and about a MOA overall spread.
 
OK so what did I learn.   Probably fire a couple after cleaning and realize that you have to know where cold bore hits.   It may be a lot or little but each load can be different too.   At 100 yds not a biggie but a 300 or better a major challenge if unprepared.  I also found that with that number 8 barrel size I need at least 3 shots to see a difference. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 13:36
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majog, yours have the hogue stock?

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