OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Scopes > Rifle Scopes
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Clarity vs. Magnification for 2000 meters
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

Topic ClosedClarity vs. Magnification for 2000 meters

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Message
Scrumbag View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: October/22/2013
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 4205
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 05:28
Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

I am visiting Europe and have found many options we do not have.

Anything you are looking for / I could help with?

Scrummy
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
Back to Top
Scrumbag View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: October/22/2013
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 4205
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 05:29
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Scrumbag Scrumbag wrote:

Ilya,

Fixed scope makers:

S&B (6x42, 7x50, 8x56 and 10x42, the last made as some police forces still like them)
Meopta 8x56, 7x56 (Yes 7x56), 6x42
Karl Kaps do 4x32, 6x42, 8x56
Docter do 6x42 and 8x56

Zeiss, Swarovski, Kahles, Leica don't

There is still a demand in Europe for scopes appropriate for older style rifles and drillings which tend to have hand fitted EAW, Apel etc type mounts which are very expensive to change.

Also in a lot of Europe thermal / NV is not legal for hunting wild boar so the 8x56 is very popular with guys who sit up for pigs at night.

Scrummy




I have seen all of these except for Kaps 8x56 and S&B 7x50.
They have their place.

ILya

That they do. Kaps is a good German scope much like Docter in my view
Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
Back to Top
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 31233
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 08:37
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

@Rancid Coolaid
Those are my goals pretty much in the priority listed and given the weaknessnes pointed out in the competition, totally achievable. If SWFA corrects before I produce then I'll be hurt but I've very close to finalizing this.

@koshkin
Quite ingenious to pair a fixed scope with a laser. It suits my product like a glove and amplifies its usefulness. Thanks for the link. By the way, I've spent this weekend shooting long with 8-10X and I think I'm persuading myself that 9x is better than 8x functionally even thought the market will probably hate that number. I suppose I could try to fix that with a catchy ad campaign slogan like "clairity to the nines" (patent and trademark pending) but that means spending even more money I don't have, sigh...
 
Right there is enough to back up and think harder about your intended idea.   You've already varied from 8x to now 9X.... everyone will have a preferred range..... hence VARIABLES.  Fixed have a place, but its not for many.
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 09:52
There are multiple aspects of this thread I find confounding, not least of which is your 2000 meter shooting.
The vast majority of shooters can't hit the mark at 700, fewer still at 1000, and fewer still at 1500. Additionally, most guns cannot accurately place rounds out that far. And most scopes don't have the elevation adjustment to get there anyway.
For every 2000 meter shooter, there are several thousand 500 meter shooters, and several thousand more 100 and 200 meter shooters. Why design a scope around a shot no one takes?
And where did the "9X needs a 56mm obj" thing come from? Is this to be a low light fixed 9X for 2,000 meter shots?

I'm glad Koshkin is enjoying this because I am bewildered.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13181
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 10:51
To make sure that the scope is never the limit, get a Tangent Theta and use it at whatever magnification strikes your fancy.

RC, you being bewildered is one of the things I find entertaining about this thread. 

YLD, do you mind if I ask what your background is? You are out designing scopes, yet you do not know the difference between a red dot sight and a laser.  This is really beginning to look like some world class trolling.

Lastly, choice of magnification is very much dependent on the size of the target, not just the distance.  If you want to sell 8x scopes to 2000 meter shooters, be ready to gave these scopes in stock and collecting dust for a long time.

Ilya
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 10:55
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

Everything that was once a limit has become surmountable, cheaply too. I hope I have edified your bewilderment.


No, it hasn't; the physics of the thing have not changed. How we manage the physics is indeed improving, but I don't see how that applies to a 9X fixed power scope - nor have you explained how this will be any different from a good 10X - other than maybe less expensive.

Don't get me wrong, a great new scope is a great new scope, and we all love those; but overselling happens often.

And I'm not sure on the drop of a 308 220 with a G1 of .888, but I am guessing at 2000 meters, is it significant - and more than you current design allows.

"Under-promise, over-deliver", I've always found success in that; and seen little if any when done the other way around.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 11:34
Actually, "laser" has a definition, and using a term wrongly is not the same as using a term colloquially. Just to clarify.

Next, the whole thing is cart-before-horse.

Build the scope, and people will evaluate the scope. Talk up the scope, and people evaluate the talk; and few seem soundly impressed with the talk.

So far.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 11:41
Screw the scope, sell the 30-caliber bullet that has a muzzle velocity of 2600 and is still supersonic past 1500 yards.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13181
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:01
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

@koshkin
I used "laser" colloquially when describing the red dot. Why would you assume I don't know the distinction? I am a mechanical engineer/project manager. I may not be totally expert in every aspect of optics but I can determine when I'm being BS'ed and I think that's enough to create a great product. Your pessimism is a bit disheartening, would you care to tell me who you believe the market for this scope would be if not glass connoisseurs?

Let's review what you'll be getting as a long range shooter:
-tracking/repeatability equivalent to the best in class
-durability equivalent to the best in class
-unsurpassed clarity at all adjustment points
-weight <28oz. and remarkably low cost against competition
I don't see why you predict a lack of appeal for this scope against others. Please elaborate on why you think these won't be a resounding success.

"Laser" is not used colloquially instead of a red dot sight.  It just isn't.

On your other points:  it will not be a resounding success with ELR shooters because of the magnification.  It might be quite successful with some other markets.

Once you get into ELR, spending $500 or $1500 or $2500 on a scope does not make a huge amount of difference.  Everything else is sufficiently expensive to make it moot.

ILya
Back to Top
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13181
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:19
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

"Laser" is not used colloquially instead of a red dot sight.  It just isn't.
Cabela's seems to mix the two terms n their website. See here. For additional evidence that these are equivalent in popular speech, input "laser or red dot sights" in a search engine. I'm getting the sense you guys have been upset by my plans, why would that be? :)

Cabela's not knowing what they are talking about is not surprising.

I am not at all upset by your plans and if you manage to bring something to the market, I will be very interested in looking at it.

You should take everything you see in this thread as constructive criticism, rather than getting defensive about it.

ILya
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:24
I'll post once more, then be done with this thread, because it is getting a bit absurd.

Have we been talking about long range hunting this whole time? If so, where the hell does the 2000 meters come from? No one, NO ONE, takes 2000 meter shots on game. A shooter from a stationary and supported position shooting at a stationary target (earth movement notwithstanding) at long range happens, but no one takes hunting shots at that range.

If you search back through past posts, you'll see that just about everyone says optical clarity is far superior to magnification - all other factors being equal - for long, precision shots. That said, the benchmark for military long range is usually Nightforce, long known to not have the best glass - but very well known for very solid mechanical movements.

There is nothing magical that happens in a fixed power scope. Many companies made fixed 4X and fixed 10X scopes, and most of them make and sell far fewer than they did when variables weren't as good as they are today.

Lastly, I own some top-shelf glass, and won't be selling any to put a fixed 8X or fixed 9X on in their place. It isn't about your features, it is all about what I can do with a variable that I cannot with a fixed. Some might want one, I do not, and definitely not for a hunting rifle.

If all this is an attempt to get users here at OT to send you a check for a theoretical scope, good luck. I won't be buying. Maybe you can one day say "I told you so", and I'll admit my mistake. If I had a nickel for every time someone over-promised and under-delivered - I could afford a more expensive scope!

One more thing: no one here knows you, you haven't earned respect or trust - or anything really. Coming in an expecting either of those things is not reasonable on your part. Lots of people have done this before (promised the unicorn scope) and none have ever delivered. The deck is stacked, but maybe you'll be different.

Edited by Rancid Coolaid - March/25/2019 at 12:50
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 31233
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:34

- sorry couldnt' resist

"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
Back to Top
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 31233
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:39
Been waiting for that to come to light RC.......
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:


Have we been talking about long range hunting this whole time? If so, where the hell does the 2000 meters come from? No one, NO ONE, takes 2000 meter shots on game. A shooter from a stationary and supported position shooting at a stationary target (earth movement notwithstanding) at long range happens, but no one takes hunting shots at that range..
 
This one gives me the warm and fuzzies too -
 
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

@supertool73
Agreed, taking any life, including game has ethical implications which you've highlighted. I'm not encouraging anyone to try a 1500 meter kill without months of prep on small steel.
 
Bucky
 
 
 
 
 
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
Back to Top
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 31233
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:42
yldouright -  here you are arguing wanting us to give you merit on a fixed 8x or 9x or whatever we are on now.....hunting scope....
 
here you quoted a variable is better -
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:


I think 4x magnification is too much for short shots and just barely enough for 600 yard shots. I'm a US East coast hunter and the most unsettling thing is to have game visible to your bare eye and not being able to find it in your scope. Want a nightmare scenario? Imagine that game is a bear! You're much better off with a modern 2.5-15x50 or 3x18x56. Glass and alignment have really improved since 2016 and it's getting better every year.
 
I'm not real sure of your angle.....
 
Another question... You say you're a us east coast hunter..... where on the east coast are you talking?
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
Back to Top
Sparky View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire


Joined: July/15/2007
Location: SD
Status: Offline
Points: 4569
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 13:39
YLD, what distances were you shooting at this last weekend? And what caliber do you use?
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 13:47
No one is nitpicking. You are asking the argumentative equivalent of "what does the color blue taste like?"

I looked back for your questions that you think we owe answers and this is what I see:
1. Assuming first tier optical clarity >1500 meters on a large animal, do you prefer an 8x or 9x setting? Neither. And for a few reasons, not least of which is hunting at that range is unethical - regardless of how many stationary targets you have shot at similar range.
2. Would your preference change with a different target size and if so, provide the size? No, I don't want or need a fixed 8X or 9X scope, especially on a hunter and doubly so for a long range rifle. I hunt several 3-9X scopes and at least 2 have offset red dots for very close-very fast shots. I cannot imagine a shot I would take with said rig that would be better served by a fixed 8X or 9X optic.
1. What does a long range hunter need in a scope that I am not offering?
Variable magnification. And demonstration of qualities thus glossed over or promised without elaboration

And, keep in mind, scopes with "near perfect" tracking fail miserably at long range. There is perfect and there is imperfect, and long range makes it clear quickly.

You may absolutely love your concept and might think everyone else will too, but that is the nature of choice, we all get it. If you can establish a need not met by current offerings - then meet it - then you will have something. Thus far, everyone has told you there is no need, so nothing to address. It isn't naysaying to acknowledge that you have a solution looking for a problem. And therefore the "cart-before-horse" comment.

Best of luck with your scope, it might be awesome; and if it is, get one to Koshkin at your earliest convenience. You are fighting two losing battles at this moment: we don't think we need what you are offering, and we don't know who you are.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
Sparky View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire


Joined: July/15/2007
Location: SD
Status: Offline
Points: 4569
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 13:53
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

C'mon guys, how aboput some real and honest answers to my questions instead of what you're doing.


Just because we are not telling you what you want to hear doesn't mean we are not being real and honest with our answers.
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 14:04
Originally posted by yldouright yldouright wrote:

We set up at 1800 meters and shot Berger .338 VLDs  at both at 8x and 9x. Hits were sparse until the wind died down. Scope was an IOR Recon. The land won't allow for any longer setups but this round can go to 2000 meters. I'm working up rounds for equivalent performance in the .308 next time (much cheaper to run).


So you cannot make a wind call (I think I mentioned that before) and now you are building 308 rounds with equivalent performance to a 338LM at 1800 meters.

It might be time to consider a different venue for your big scope debut.

Or keep the hits coming, this has gone from useful to entertaining.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 31233
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 14:09
Ok.... so on the off chance you think "we think" this is legit.... give us some background on you... you keep going to the metric system, imagine you have a background there? what is it?
Do you have a business of building optical systems? Know companies that do?
 
You've dove into the deep in.... maybe backup... give us some background, give us something that makes us think you're legit.
 
Shooting at 1800m is no joke, few I know can.  What weapon system where you using?
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2019 at 14:19
In general, people pay for market research; you are seeking it free of charge.

You keep using words that don't belong in precision conversations, like "estimation", that doesn't work at 1000+ yards or meters. If you do not understand how "near perfect" differs from perfect and how, at range, that difference is obvious, then we are having entirely different conversations.

I don't want your scope, but do want your 308 recipe that mimics 338LM ballistics. The scope will make you some money, a recipe that sends projectiles from a 308 case to 1800 yards and the projectile arrives supersonic: that is Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates-kinda money!
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.285 seconds.