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Clarity vs. Magnification for 2000 meters |
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 05:28 | |
Anything you are looking for / I could help with? Scrummy
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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Scrumbag
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: October/22/2013 Location: London, UK Status: Offline Points: 4205 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 05:29 | |
That they do. Kaps is a good German scope much like Docter in my view
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Was sure I had a point when I started this post...
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 08:37 | |
Right there is enough to back up and think harder about your intended idea. You've already varied from 8x to now 9X.... everyone will have a preferred range..... hence VARIABLES. Fixed have a place, but its not for many.
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 09:52 | |
There are multiple aspects of this thread I find confounding, not least of which is your 2000 meter shooting.
The vast majority of shooters can't hit the mark at 700, fewer still at 1000, and fewer still at 1500. Additionally, most guns cannot accurately place rounds out that far. And most scopes don't have the elevation adjustment to get there anyway. For every 2000 meter shooter, there are several thousand 500 meter shooters, and several thousand more 100 and 200 meter shooters. Why design a scope around a shot no one takes? And where did the "9X needs a 56mm obj" thing come from? Is this to be a low light fixed 9X for 2,000 meter shots? I'm glad Koshkin is enjoying this because I am bewildered. |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 10:51 | |
To make sure that the scope is never the limit, get a Tangent Theta and use it at whatever magnification strikes your fancy.
RC, you being bewildered is one of the things I find entertaining about this thread. YLD, do you mind if I ask what your background is? You are out designing scopes, yet you do not know the difference between a red dot sight and a laser. This is really beginning to look like some world class trolling. Lastly, choice of magnification is very much dependent on the size of the target, not just the distance. If you want to sell 8x scopes to 2000 meter shooters, be ready to gave these scopes in stock and collecting dust for a long time. Ilya
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 10:55 | |
No, it hasn't; the physics of the thing have not changed. How we manage the physics is indeed improving, but I don't see how that applies to a 9X fixed power scope - nor have you explained how this will be any different from a good 10X - other than maybe less expensive. Don't get me wrong, a great new scope is a great new scope, and we all love those; but overselling happens often. And I'm not sure on the drop of a 308 220 with a G1 of .888, but I am guessing at 2000 meters, is it significant - and more than you current design allows. "Under-promise, over-deliver", I've always found success in that; and seen little if any when done the other way around. |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 11:34 | |
Actually, "laser" has a definition, and using a term wrongly is not the same as using a term colloquially. Just to clarify.
Next, the whole thing is cart-before-horse. Build the scope, and people will evaluate the scope. Talk up the scope, and people evaluate the talk; and few seem soundly impressed with the talk. So far. |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 11:41 | |
Screw the scope, sell the 30-caliber bullet that has a muzzle velocity of 2600 and is still supersonic past 1500 yards.
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:01 | |
"Laser" is not used colloquially instead of a red dot sight. It just isn't. On your other points: it will not be a resounding success with ELR shooters because of the magnification. It might be quite successful with some other markets. Once you get into ELR, spending $500 or $1500 or $2500 on a scope does not make a huge amount of difference. Everything else is sufficiently expensive to make it moot. ILya
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:19 | |
Cabela's not knowing what they are talking about is not surprising. I am not at all upset by your plans and if you manage to bring something to the market, I will be very interested in looking at it. You should take everything you see in this thread as constructive criticism, rather than getting defensive about it. ILya
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:24 | |
I'll post once more, then be done with this thread, because it is getting a bit absurd.
Have we been talking about long range hunting this whole time? If so, where the hell does the 2000 meters come from? No one, NO ONE, takes 2000 meter shots on game. A shooter from a stationary and supported position shooting at a stationary target (earth movement notwithstanding) at long range happens, but no one takes hunting shots at that range. If you search back through past posts, you'll see that just about everyone says optical clarity is far superior to magnification - all other factors being equal - for long, precision shots. That said, the benchmark for military long range is usually Nightforce, long known to not have the best glass - but very well known for very solid mechanical movements. There is nothing magical that happens in a fixed power scope. Many companies made fixed 4X and fixed 10X scopes, and most of them make and sell far fewer than they did when variables weren't as good as they are today. Lastly, I own some top-shelf glass, and won't be selling any to put a fixed 8X or fixed 9X on in their place. It isn't about your features, it is all about what I can do with a variable that I cannot with a fixed. Some might want one, I do not, and definitely not for a hunting rifle. If all this is an attempt to get users here at OT to send you a check for a theoretical scope, good luck. I won't be buying. Maybe you can one day say "I told you so", and I'll admit my mistake. If I had a nickel for every time someone over-promised and under-delivered - I could afford a more expensive scope! One more thing: no one here knows you, you haven't earned respect or trust - or anything really. Coming in an expecting either of those things is not reasonable on your part. Lots of people have done this before (promised the unicorn scope) and none have ever delivered. The deck is stacked, but maybe you'll be different. Edited by Rancid Coolaid - March/25/2019 at 12:50 |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:34 | |
- sorry couldnt' resist |
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:39 | |
Been waiting for that to come to light RC.......
This one gives me the warm and fuzzies too -
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 12:42 | |
yldouright - here you are arguing wanting us to give you merit on a fixed 8x or 9x or whatever we are on now.....hunting scope....
here you quoted a variable is better -
I'm not real sure of your angle..... Another question... You say you're a us east coast hunter..... where on the east coast are you talking?
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 13:39 | |
YLD, what distances were you shooting at this last weekend? And what caliber do you use?
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 13:47 | |
No one is nitpicking. You are asking the argumentative equivalent of "what does the color blue taste like?"
I looked back for your questions that you think we owe answers and this is what I see: 1. Assuming first tier optical clarity >1500 meters on a large animal, do you prefer an 8x or 9x setting? Neither. And for a few reasons, not least of which is hunting at that range is unethical - regardless of how many stationary targets you have shot at similar range. 2. Would your preference change with a different target size and if so, provide the size? No, I don't want or need a fixed 8X or 9X scope, especially on a hunter and doubly so for a long range rifle. I hunt several 3-9X scopes and at least 2 have offset red dots for very close-very fast shots. I cannot imagine a shot I would take with said rig that would be better served by a fixed 8X or 9X optic. 1. What does a long range hunter need in a scope that I am not offering? Variable magnification. And demonstration of qualities thus glossed over or promised without elaboration And, keep in mind, scopes with "near perfect" tracking fail miserably at long range. There is perfect and there is imperfect, and long range makes it clear quickly. You may absolutely love your concept and might think everyone else will too, but that is the nature of choice, we all get it. If you can establish a need not met by current offerings - then meet it - then you will have something. Thus far, everyone has told you there is no need, so nothing to address. It isn't naysaying to acknowledge that you have a solution looking for a problem. And therefore the "cart-before-horse" comment. Best of luck with your scope, it might be awesome; and if it is, get one to Koshkin at your earliest convenience. You are fighting two losing battles at this moment: we don't think we need what you are offering, and we don't know who you are. |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 13:53 | |
Just because we are not telling you what you want to hear doesn't mean we are not being real and honest with our answers.
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 14:04 | |
So you cannot make a wind call (I think I mentioned that before) and now you are building 308 rounds with equivalent performance to a 338LM at 1800 meters. It might be time to consider a different venue for your big scope debut. Or keep the hits coming, this has gone from useful to entertaining. |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 14:09 | |
Ok.... so on the off chance you think "we think" this is legit.... give us some background on you... you keep going to the metric system, imagine you have a background there? what is it?
Do you have a business of building optical systems? Know companies that do? You've dove into the deep in.... maybe backup... give us some background, give us something that makes us think you're legit. Shooting at 1800m is no joke, few I know can. What weapon system where you using?
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"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Posted: March/25/2019 at 14:19 | |
In general, people pay for market research; you are seeking it free of charge.
You keep using words that don't belong in precision conversations, like "estimation", that doesn't work at 1000+ yards or meters. If you do not understand how "near perfect" differs from perfect and how, at range, that difference is obvious, then we are having entirely different conversations. I don't want your scope, but do want your 308 recipe that mimics 338LM ballistics. The scope will make you some money, a recipe that sends projectiles from a 308 case to 1800 yards and the projectile arrives supersonic: that is Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates-kinda money! |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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