Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials. |
Chrome Moly VS Stainless Steel |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: May/08/2009 at 08:10 |
Okay guys, I need your help in edumacating myself about barrels. I am currently shopping for a .223, I have pretty much decided on a Savage Model 12. Either the 12BGTV or the 12BTCSS. Both have Boyd Thumbhole stocked, fluted bull barrels. One is blued Chrome Moly and the other is Stainless Steel.
Is one material better than the other?
What are the pros and cons of the two materials? Accuracy, life expectancy, wear, maintenance, break-in, thermal behavior and anything I am overlooking or totally ignorant of. I have never owned a gun in SS so I have never really considered this question until now. Any and all comments, opinions and observations will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance
Bud
|
|
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Stainless obviously has better corrosion resistance, but isn't rust proof. From a manufacturing standpoint, it's easier to get a smoother bore finish in 416 stainless than in Chrome Moly, which is one of the reasons why custom barrel manufacturers use SS for the bulk of their match barrels that are hand lapped. All else being equal, a smoother, more uniform bore results in greater accuracy. The 400 series martensitic stainless used for barrels is a bit more heat resistant and therefore more resistant to throat erosion, which translates to longer accurate barrel life.If you want a custom match grade barrel from one of the major players, in most cases, the decision is made for you. Most are only available in stainless steel.
With factory barrels on factory rifles, all the above is largely irrelevent, because factory barrels aren't made to match grade standards anyway. Good barrels can be made from either material. In a hunting rifle, the theoretical life of the barrel is probably a moot point. Either material will provide a long lasting hunting barrel. For a competition barrel that's likely to see a lot of rounds, it's a different story. Unless you do a lot of shooting, the main advantage to stainless is corrosion resistance.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Dogger
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/02/2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 8863 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
An excerpt from Dan Lilja's website (http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm)
"The barrel maker must choose the type of steel the barrels are made from. Most often this would be either a chrome-moly steel such as 4140 or a stainless steel such as type 416. The important characteristics of the steel are its machinability, longevity, and strength. Other considerations are secondary, such as its ability to be blued or resistance to corrosion. Almost 100% of the barrels used in competitive bench rest shooting are made from stainless steel. The grades of stainless used for barrels are fairly machinable and offer a longer accuracy life over conventional chrome-moly. They are also more resistant to some of the harsh cleaners used by accuracy shooters. A side benefit is their ability to resist corrosion."
Have read that from a machining perspective stainless is "softer" making it a little easier to maintain close tolerances. Stainless is also supposed to have a work hardening property that allows it to better resist throat erosion. When under the abrasion and pressures of firing the bore and throat sections of the barrel will toughen up.
For a hunting application firearm a personal choice. To be sure chrome-moly has given and will continue to give excellent service and I love the look of a highly polished blued barrel. Climate factors where you hunt may help make the choice.
|
|
God save the Empire!
|
|
Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
What they said above, however:
Stainless in 416 form is not recommended for use below zero degrees. Crucible 416R is a pre-hardened chromium stainless steel which is suitable for use in precision match-grade rifle barrels. It can be supplied in various hardness ranges according to your specific requirements ( HRC 24/28, 28/32, or 32/36). A homogeneous microstructure which responds to heat treat providing a uniform hardness. An optimum combination of high tensile strength along with adequate toughness to withstand the typical chamber pressures encountered during firing. Barrels made from Crucible 416R are used at all levels of competition and in all conditions dry, damp or salty. Although all martensitic stainless steels have reduced ductility at very low temperatures, Crucible 416R can be safely used down to minus 40°F (-40°C). Information provided by Crucible Specialty Metals. |
|
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Oh, I forgot to mention one other thing. If you want a traditional blued finish, you have to use regular CrMo steel, because stainless won't accept bluing. That isn't an issue if you're planning to leave the SS with a matte blasted or polished finish or you're planning to use a "spray and bake" or plated finish.
One other thing on barrel life as well...
While SS has more resistance to throat erosion, it is still softer than CrMo, so the remainder of the bore may actually have less accurate life due to friction. So, the barrel life question may be a wash between the two materials. Usually, throat erosion is the culprit when a barrel gets "shot out" to the point accuracy starts to suffer. CrMo is harder and more brittle, so it is reportedly more prone to tiny thermal cracks in the throat than stainless.
The main reason custom match grade barrel manufacturers use 416 stainless is simply that it's easier to machine, rifle, and lap to a smooth, close tolerance, uniform bore than CrMo steel.
|
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Dogger
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/02/2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 8863 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
And just to make things more confusing, here is an excerpt from Krieger's web site:
Q: Which is better Chrome Moly or Stainless Steel? A: For the most part neither one is better than the other. The only difference we find is that sometimes the chrome moly might take a little longer to break-in and might have a little more affinity for copper or seems to show it easier. In terms of barrel life and accuracy, we can find no difference. Choice is yours Bud! |
|
God save the Empire!
|
|
budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Great info guys, THANKS!!! Anybody know what material Savage uses in there SS barrels?
|
|
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
|
Dogger
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/02/2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 8863 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I believe they are 416R - will try to verify.
|
|
God save the Empire!
|
|
budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thank you sir! I appreciate the assistance!
|
|
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
|
Dogger
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/02/2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 8863 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Called Savage service line but the fellow answering had no idea. Suggested sending a note to their engineering group. If not a proprietory alloy could probably tell you.
Savage Arms, 100 Springdale Road, Westfield, MA 01085
|
|
God save the Empire!
|
|
budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Thanks for trying, I appreciate it!
I have a feeling that since I have never seen anything from Savage cautioning or warning about subzero useage that they must use the Crucible 416R or similar alloy. It would be too big of a liability issue for them not to have some type of disclaimer about their SS guns otherwise.
|
|
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
|
Dogger
Optics Jedi Master Joined: January/02/2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 8863 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
A good bet that it's 416R. Other alloys avail but probably more expensive - this seems to be the standard for US barrel makers for stainless.
|
|
God save the Empire!
|
|
Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
410 is actually a better stainless steel... BUT it is more difficult, and therefore much more expensive, to rife. IF a stainless 410 barrel of high quality machining and, later, accuracy can be found, it is worth what one would have to pay for it.
|
|
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Yes, exactly. 410 is more corrosion resistant, but very gummy and more difficult to gun drill the blank without having gouges in the finish where the stringy chips get caught around the head of the gun drill. Actually 416 is the same alloy as 410, just with added sulfur to make it more machinable. Most likely 416R is the alloy of choice for most manufacturers, because it's much easier to machine than, say, 303, 316, 17-4 PH, etc. Where I work, we machine all of the materials thus far mentioned. Deep hole drilling with a gun drill is much easier with 416 than any other stainless. |
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Ted,
I have a technical question. Since you work with this stuff regularly, what is your opinion of cryo-treatment of stainless steel? If you were to cryo 410, would that resolve some of the malleability issues? Or if you cryo 416 would that provide the addition strength, by realigning the crystalline structure, that is removed by adding sulphur?
|
|
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
|
budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Once again I see I came to the right place to seek advice! Thanks Dan, Ted and Craig. I am continually impressed with the depth of knowledge and the eagerness with which it is shared on this Forum. OT Rocks!
|
|
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
|
mike650
Optics God Joined: May/14/2006 Location: West of Rockies Status: Offline Points: 14560 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Great stuff and team work!!
|
|
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
|
|
300S&W
Optics God Joined: January/27/2008 Location: Burlington,WV Status: Offline Points: 10592 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Came across this yesterday. Don't know if it's what Savage uses in their centerfire rifle barrels but it's still intereresting.
|
|
budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Cool article Earl Thanks for the link!
|
|
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
|
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Not sure. Cryo treatment is a controversial topic. From my limited experience with cryo'ed materials, I honestly couldn't tell any difference whatsoever in any physical properties of the material before vs. after. I do know it was the hot trend in the heat treatment world about 10-15 years ago, and I see fewer people doing it or even talking about it anymore these days. To me, that says a lot. A couple of the prominent barrel makers say it's a bunch of hocus-pokus. It seems to me if it really provided the benefits claimed, everyone would be doing it. I used to have vendors visiting me claiming that if we cryo'ed our cutting tools (endmills, drills, reamers, etc.) that we'd get significantly greater tool life. I tried it and couldn't tell any difference whatsoever. If it worked as advertised, it seems to me all the major cutting tool manufacturers would be doing it to get an edge over their competition. They don't. |
|
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |