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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 13:23
RifleDude View Drop Down
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On that same theme G mentioned, there are plenty of DAO semi-autos that have a very similar long DA revo-like trigger pulls, the Kahr lineup, DAO Sigs of various flavors and pretty much all DA/SA semi-autos galore being among them. So, a revolver doesn't necessarily provide a trigger safety advantage over a semi-auto pistol depending on fire control systems being compared.

Is the "coat pocket stealth engagement" strategy really a frequently used scenario or an urban legend? Not trying to be facetious. I've heard that scenario mentioned a few times over the years, but can't say I've ever actually heard of an example where that was done or really why one would choose to do that vs. clearing your sidearm of clothing for better control of bullet placement. I guess if someone was on top of you and had you pinned, limiting arm movement, perhaps?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 13:29
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That's a good point Ted.  All my training has been about aimed fire.  If you are that close they have taught me to attempt to create distance by striking the person with hands, feet, knees, elbows or whatever, then presenting the weapon and firing from either close contact to your body or if you created enough distance from a proper shooting stance. 

Not saying that someone has never done the shoot through the coat idea.  But I would prefer to know exactly where my bullets are going since a lawyer is attached to each one of them. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 13:37
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

But I would prefer to know exactly where my bullets are going since a lawyer is attached to each one of them.  

Man, truer words couldn't possibly exist than that! Hell, you may very likely need a lawyer in some situations even if you just PRESENT the pistol but don't fire a shot!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 14:24
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This actually happened to me several years ago.  You were always told if you pocket carry to make sure there is nothing else in your pocket.  There are very good reasons for that rule.

I used to carry a Kahr PM9, and sometimes still do.  Years ago I often pocket carried it in a soft side pocket holster.  One day I go to the hardware store on my way home from work.  When I get there I empty the change from my pocket, and still seated in the driver seat, start sticking the holstered Kahr in my right front pocket.  I still had my pocket knife with a cilp attached to my pocket.  As I stuff the Kahr into my pocket the knife pushes against the side of the soft side holster, and finds its way into the trigger guard.

When a 9mm handgun goes boom in your car it is very loud!!!!  When it goes boom in your pocket it makes a bigger hole in your pants than you think it would.  I hop out of the car, unbuckle my belt and drop my pants to see how bad I'm shot.  Unbelievably I am not shot, but I do have a pretty good powder burn on my leg, and a scratch about 8" long that is slightly bleeding.  Somehow I managed to miss my foot.  The car did suffer a graze to the lower dashboard, and a hole in the floor near the brake pedal.  More importantly, there are no other people around that could have been hit by a ricochet or splatter. 

 Sometimes an Angel watches over you.  That must have been the case for me that day.  Generally you have to break more than one firearm safety rule for something bad to happen.  With the right set of circumstances you only have to break one.

I did not name the brand of soft side holster because it could have happened with any brand I have ever fondled.  If I pocket carry now it is with a leather pocket holster with a stiff enough side that nothing could push against the trigger.

I was dumb and broke a rule.  I was lucky enough that only the soft side holster, and a pair of pants were ruined.  The big brown spot in my undies washed out, and a little caulking fixed the hole in the floor.

I will not carry any handgun that is not holstered in a good leather holster.  As I said earlier my .02, my opinion.


I edited this post to add that kydex or some type of solid, stiff sided material is needed.  MY preference is leather.


Edited by SEMO Shooter - December/11/2018 at 16:07
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 14:41
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Well Semo, you convinced me.  I have never actually carried in a pocket before.  But now I never will, not even with a holster will I.  I use my pockets for to much other crap and the risk is to great IMO.  I like my leg. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 15:42
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A proper pocket holster should always completely cover the trigger guard and be stiff so that it simply isn't possible for items to intrude into the trigger guard. Any holster, regardless of type, is part of your carry gun's safety system, and any holster that allows anything to contact the trigger while the gun is holstered is an unsafe design. Soft pocket holsters are unsafe and should not be used. A proper pocket holster should also keep the gun oriented muzzle down, have good pistol retention, and be sized so that it isn't possible for it to shift from that orientation no matter what. Basically, the requirements for a correctly designed pocket holster are exactly the same requirements as any other carry holster. There are plenty of pocket holsters that suck, but there are also plenty of stiff leather, properly made pocket holsters that completely cover everything but the grip. I pocket carry frequently, even when I'm also carrying a full size pistol in a waistband holster. 

Under no circumstances should you ever pocket carry an unholstered pistol, for the reasons mentioned.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 16:18
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 I disagree Ted.... there are times I feel it is acceptable... again it takes common sense not to put anything else in your pocket with it but I pocket carry all the time with out a holster and my j frame or with a soft side holster.  But again I don't mean to say others weren't cautious but i'm always , ALWAYS certain that pocket contains nothing else.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 16:24
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If you feel you shouldn't that I'm out to change your mind but I feel its to each his own with their style if they are comfortable.  You are 100% liable for the firearm you carry and the bullets that exit the muzzle.... that should be your first thought each time you carry no matter how, what or wear you carry.

 

Now SEMO... not to knock you and don't take it at such but I can conclude if you pocket carried that way and also had a knife in that pocket you had become to complacent on carrying that style.  Pocket carry with no holster of a soft side holster is a method that does require thought more so that if it was in a holster that had a hard trigger guard cover of sorts be it in the pocket or waistband or any other way.  Don't get me wrong, not saying you're bad for doing it just saying its  easy to get complacent with carrying a firearm to the point some folks don't treat it as what it really is, a deadly weapon.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 16:44
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I agree we each do what we are comfortable with is the key. 

I think the point Semo was trying to make as was the point I was trying to make is its easy now to say you are certain, but you make that one that mistake because something else distracted you and bang goes the gun.  Pockets are something we use for many other things every day.   Unless you never ever carry anything else in that pocket besides a gun and I mean ever there is always that chance you could get distracted and leave your knife clipped or drop your keys in, etc. Simple memory takes over and 100 different things could happen to make a gun go boom.  My kids put their hands in my pockets all the time and that is another risk for me.

The guy telling the story I was listening to was talking the same as you.  He had all the good common sense and would never make a mistake and become complacent.  But he never thought of the scenario that happened to him.  He was just grateful he didn't hurt himself or anyone else. 

A proper holster reduces the risks considerably.  But for me, I've spent to many years building up muscle memory that my pockets are for everything else than to trust them for a gun.    

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 18:43
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The reasons for always using a properly designed pocket holster when pocket carrying a pistol goes beyond just safeguarding against NDs. It also prevents lint or other objects/debris in your pocket from entering the muzzle, collecting inside the slide, etc. It also provides a square outline in your pocket that looks “wallet-like,” to avoid “printing.” It prevents your pistol from sliding around and altering orientation within your pocket, further enhancing safety. Finally, it helps shield your gun from sweat.

The fact is, the event described with ND would be highly improbable if not impossible with a stiff (not soft), thick leather or Kydex pocket holster that completely covers the trigger guard and has good pistol retention.

Everyone has their own comfort zone with respect to carry method, but there is no doubt that pocket carry is much safer when using a properly designed, stiff holster that completely covers the trigger guard and prevents your gun from shifting around in your pocket, in the same way that it’s safer to always use a holster with any other carry method.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/11/2018 at 18:56
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By the way, please understand that none of the above is meant as a criticism of SVT or Semo in any way. I have no doubt that both are very safe, conscientious guys.

The point is, mistakes happen. To err is human. It’s always better to employ superior methods that help you mitigate mistakes, especially when there is no disadvantage to doing so.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 hours 48 minutes ago at 12:12
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Guys,

I take no offense to any comments of my ND and it was a ND.  The pocket knife is a typical defensive clip type knife.  I had stuck the holstered gun in my right front pocket many times before with the knife clipped to the pocket.  I thought the holster I was using protected the trigger.  I was wrong.  I shared my story because it might prevent someone else from making the same mistake.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 hours 39 minutes ago at 12:21
RifleDude View Drop Down
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Yes sir, and I thought your post was outstanding, Semo! It was an excellent reminder/wake-up call that illustrates that sometimes despite our best intentions and precautions, bad things can still happen. The hope is we can all learn from one another's mistakes and avoid repeating them. I'm really glad that no serious injury resulted from that incident buddy!
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