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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2009 at 18:32
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I read a while back or may have even posted on a thread, but was just looking at some brass I was getting ready to start resizing and my notes say this will be the 11th session.  they are 22-250 in both win / rem  all signs look good no splits cracks deformity, and as far as I know primer pockets are or were good last reload.  what is your take on case life.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2009 at 19:09
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 They can last through alot of reloading if treated right(not stressed). I'm still using 48 of the original 100 .300 H+H casings I bought in the mid 80's. When the primer pockets get loose I toss them. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2009 at 19:14
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I dont keep real good count of how many times its been shot. I shoot it till I cant.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2009 at 18:26
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Sane pressures and sound die/chamber geometry will readily bolster case life,as will brass of initially great quality.
 
Most induce copious headspace,unknowingly,which does bad things to case life,accuracy and reliability...................
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2009 at 20:54
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One trick is to minmize sizing, which "work hardens" case and makes the case brittle and subject to cracking. Neck-sizing only helps, but standard sizing dies work the neck twice, once when sizing down, and once when being pulled back over the expander ball. Dies that only size the neck down (such as Redding "S" dies or Lee Collett Dies) cut work-hardening in half.
 
Annealing the neck every 5-10 firings also extends case life a lot--along with, of course, loading to moderate pressures.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2009 at 22:11
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   I read an article in Handloader #152 by Gary Sitton in which he describes the procedures used by Bob Jensen of Jensen's Custom Ammunition to produce 250,000 rounds of 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester) ammo after being awarded a contract to produce such for the 1992 Palma Match. All work was done by hand by Bob and his two sons. Of course I can't put the whole article up but basically he used a .32ACP carbide sizing die to true up casing mouths and a Lyman "M" die to expand the necks. I will say that his ammo produced .5 MOA accuracy.
   Since the article was dealing with the .308 caliber I decided to try reloading my .300 that way and have been doing it for close to 20yrs.  So the body of my casings never touch the inside of a die. I can watch the carbide die size the neck to its base. And the "M" die expander assembly I leave loose while doing that step. Whether this is one of the reasons for my casing life being so good I don't know. But it made sense to me that by not sizing the body down,as it's already formed to my chamber,I wouldn't be unnecessarily working my casings. I have been annealing the necks for a good while since reading how John described an easy way to do it.  I've been using the same two loads for many years,especially the 150gr load I developed in 88'. As I posted eariler in the thread,when my primer pockets loosen I toss the casings and I'm still using 40+ of my original 100 .300 H+H casings which I use to make mine. I've tried this a bit with the .308 Winchester and .30-06 and it's worked fine. I've got a .300 WSM here to play with and have gotten the casings ready to charge and seat bullets in. The neck sized empty casing are chambering with no problems.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2009 at 22:31
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A few of my 22-250's have had brass running into 15+ loadings with just minimal sizing work and proper neck lube during the sizing process.  This is running some fairly warm, but not abusive loads, like 80 grain sierra's at 2750fps.
 
On the other hand when I run new brass and the same bullet to 3250fps I get another 500 yards usable range, but the brass is a 1 time thing.  Load, shoot, eject, leave.
 
Moderation in all things is good advice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/09/2009 at 22:38
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       Shocked  ONE TIME!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2009 at 03:33
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I'm pretty hip on the 22-250AI running the 75A-Max at 3500fps(Re-15/moly),in Hart(1-9"),Rock(1-7") and Kreiger(1-7.7") tubes.
 
Bushing dies rule and they only get better without an expander ball...............
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/10/2009 at 18:51
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John, how do you anneal your brass?  Never done it before.  Have a some .22-250 brass that are getting up there in reloadings 10-12 and have thought about annealing but never done it.  Suggestions?  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 18:26
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Okay guys, I have been reloading my 270Win.  Both Remy and Win brass.  I am on the 5th session with them.   I have only neck sized them with my Lee system.  I have had no problems with just neck sizing.  I was talking to I believe it was Beltfed and reading an article in a friends shooting magazine.  I decided to try the full re-sizing die this time and had nothing but trouble.  Several casings got jambed.  Some, were very hard to resize while others seemed to resize smoothly.  All were lubed.  The ones that got stuck were a pain in the butt it get out of the die.   The de-capper didn't survive the 1st jamb.  I made a rod out a hardened steel to drive them out of die.  I backed off running the casing all the way in the full length die thereby resizing about half the casing neck above the shoulder.  The resized neck portion was very apparent from the unsized portion.  I figure I lost about 15% of the casings.  If I had run them all the way home I would have lost a bunch more.  Is this normal?  Did I wait to long to do the 1st full resize?  I ended up running all the casings thru the neck sizing die afterwards since the de-capper/expander on the full length bought it on the 1st jamb.  After running them thru the 'neck only' the necks all returned to a uniform size.  Is it possible my full length die is the wrong size???  I measured the ID of the neck on a couple of the jambed casings after I got them out and the ID read .264"
 
I really had to use a lot of pressure on the press to get it to resize most of the casings with the full size die.  Is this simply because of oversized casings from a large chamber?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 18:31
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I always thought that annealing made the metal harder, right?
I thought it is best to maintain softer pliable brass for forming and bullet retention.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 18:36
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I think something went haywire or you screwed up? this is why I just stick with basic regular dies and either use them full or adjust them to neck only ....sorry Bud I have not had this problamo so cant give any guidance, but if you will please hold one of our operators will help you shortly enjoy the music as you wait!    Shocked
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 18:59
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Originally posted by rifle looney rifle looney wrote:

I think something went haywire or you screwed up? this is why I just stick with basic regular dies and either use them full or adjust them to neck only ....sorry Bud I have not had this problamo so cant give any guidance, but if you will please hold one of our operators will help you shortly enjoy the music as you wait!    Shocked
 
I rechecked out the Die setup after the 1st jamb.  I am thinking that the casings were over-expanded from mulitple firings with only neck sizing?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 22:23
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Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

I always thought that annealing made the metal harder, right?
I thought it is best to maintain softer pliable brass for forming and bullet retention.
 
Annealing most metals will make them harder but annealing brass will make it softer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 22:46
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Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

 
I measured the ID of the neck on a couple of the jambed casings after I got them out and the ID read .264"
 
 
This can't be right.  How are you measuring the ID?  If you are using the spreader on the back of the caliper then that is not a good way of measuring. 
 
If you measure the outside diameter of a size case and then the outside diameter of a loaded case and subtract the 2 then that will give you the total brass thickness.  Divide by 2 and that will give you your neck brass thickness each side.  Then you can subtract the total brass thickness from the OD of a loaded case and that will tell you ID.
 
The only other way I know of to measure ID is with a set of pin gauges.
 
If your brass is sticking up in the die then you need to look at your lube.  What kind are you using?
 
Yes it could be that you have a large chamber and the die is working extra hard to squeeze that down, but it should be able to do this without the cases sticking in the die.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 22:50
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Sako... why is using the spreader on the caliper not a good way of measuring the ID is that not what it is intended for ? or is it just not the best?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2009 at 22:55
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

I always thought that annealing made the metal harder, right?
I thought it is best to maintain softer pliable brass for forming and bullet retention.
 
Annealing most metals will make them harder but annealing brass will make it softer.
 
I believe annealing usually does make metals softer. Tempering them usually makes them harder.......however the process usually used to temper (harden) most metals will anneal (soften) brass.
 
I can't be of much help on the sizing problem, other than what Sako said.....I'd look at the sizing lube, and be sure to lube the inside of the case mouths. I tried to full length size some cases without any lube on the necks or inside....it didn't work real well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 05:14
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

I always thought that annealing made the metal harder, right?
I thought it is best to maintain softer pliable brass for forming and bullet retention.
 
Annealing most metals will make them harder but annealing brass will make it softer.
 
I believe annealing usually does make metals softer. Tempering them usually makes them harder.......however the process usually used to temper (harden) most metals will anneal (soften) brass.
 
I can't be of much help on the sizing problem, other than what Sako said.....I'd look at the sizing lube, and be sure to lube the inside of the case mouths. I tried to full length size some cases without any lube on the necks or inside....it didn't work real well.

did they get really stuck?? i have a tool to fix that and it cost me about a $1.00 to make and it works real good
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 07:45
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Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

Okay guys, I have been reloading my 270Win.... Is this normal? .... After running them thru the 'neck only' the necks all returned to a uniform size.  Is it possible my full length die is the wrong size???  I measured the ID of the neck on a couple of the jambed casings after I got them out and the ID read .264"
 
This is not normal. Is (was) the neck expander ball for a 270, or does the Lee die not use an expander?  Either way the neck ID should be more like .272 or .273 for good bullet pull on the .277 OD 270WIN bullet.  If it is a standard press die, I'd say the neck section of the die is way too tight, or the brass is very thick in the neck.  Use your caliper or mic to measure the expander, it should be at least .273 OD.  What does the OD of the sized but not expanded case measure?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 09:30
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

I always thought that annealing made the metal harder, right?
I thought it is best to maintain softer pliable brass for forming and bullet retention.
 
Annealing most metals will make them harder but annealing brass will make it softer.
 
Thanks.  I thought I was going crazy crazier!  So what is the easiest way to anneal brass?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 10:02
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

 
I measured the ID of the neck on a couple of the jambed casings after I got them out and the ID read .264"
 
 
This can't be right.  How are you measuring the ID?  If you are using the spreader on the back of the caliper then that is not a good way of measuring. 
 
If you measure the outside diameter of a size case and then the outside diameter of a loaded case and subtract the 2 then that will give you the total brass thickness.  Divide by 2 and that will give you your neck brass thickness each side.  Then you can subtract the total brass thickness from the OD of a loaded case and that will tell you ID.
 
The only other way I know of to measure ID is with a set of pin gauges.
 
If your brass is sticking up in the die then you need to look at your lube.  What kind are you using?
 
Yes it could be that you have a large chamber and the die is working extra hard to squeeze that down, but it should be able to do this without the cases sticking in the die.
The 0.264" ID measurement was taken after a full length resize.  The die had no expander because it got bent on 1st jamb.  I did use the spreader on Caliper to take the measurement.  I made a ramrod out of a grade 8 1/4" bolt and used that to drive out subsequent jambs.   I was wondering if Lee somehow marked a 6.5mm die as a 270.
 
I have ands tried both "Lee Resizing Lube" and Hornady "One Shot" case lube spray.  It did not seem to make a difference.  I pulled the rims off several casings.


Edited by budperm - March/14/2009 at 10:13
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 10:26
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did they get really stuck?? i have a tool to fix that and it cost me about a $1.00 to make and it works real good
[/QUOTE]
 
Big time stuck.  Bent the expander on 1 st jamb.  Made a ramrod out of 1/4' mild steel rod, that worked once but flared out inside casing making it hard to remove.  Now I am using a grade 8 1/4" bolt.  What are you using Hunter?


Edited by budperm - March/14/2009 at 10:27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 11:10
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Okay, I took some more measurements and re-verified neck ID using calipers.
                            Neck OD before resizing=0.0308" to 0.314"
        Neck OD after FL& Neck Only resizing=0.304"
           Neck ID after FL and Neck only size=0.275" used neck only die to expnd neck to spec
                                OD of  bent expander=0.0276" from FL die
    Neck ID of FL sized UNexpanded casing=0.264"
       Neck OD FL sized UNexpanded casing=0.2935
                 calculated neck metal thickness=0.01475"
                 measured neck metal thickness=.015"
The expander is a profiled rod so I can't determine what clearance there is in the neck portion of the FL die.
 


Edited by budperm - March/14/2009 at 11:15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2009 at 11:31
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It is a bad die.  .275 ID is about right after expanding.  The FL die should only squeeze the case down to an ID of about .273, or an OD of .303, before case mouth/neck expanding.  The die neck is about 0.010" to small in ID dimension.  You could ream and polish it to the correct size or send it back to Lee... I am surprised you could get the expander ball out of the case.  And it isn't a 6.5 die, it is too big for that.  It is just not the right size.  Hope that helps.
 
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