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cant revisited

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rkingston View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rkingston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 18:27
I've checked the small bubble levels specifically made for installing scopes and found them to be off by quite a bit sometimes. The other problem is finding a true and flat spot on the rifle to set the magnet on. All things considered, you have to start with a level rifle.
So, here's what I did:
I put the rifle (loosely) in my gun vice with the bases already mounted and the bottom half of the rings installed.
Then I used a torpedo type level across the top of the bottom half of the rings to level the rifle.
Then I locked the rifle down in the gun vice and verified that it was still level moving the torpedo level from the front ring to the back ring.
Then I layed the scope in the rings and loosely installed the top half of the scope rings.
Then I moved the level to the scope turret, levelled the scope, and tightened the rings up.
Once thats done, bore sight it with whatever bore sighter you have. I used the standard laser type. Seems to work pretty good for me. Hope this helps. I would post a pic but I cant because of some 50 count rule.
RK
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 19:36
  Odd .... every one we setup with the laserlyte ends up being dead on ! That's what I was saying about the set on magnet type ... or the slip and fall off levels ... pain in the rear ... as well as the screw on screw off ones ..... and which ones did you test ? We checked this one and she's as accurate as our long level that we use to level the wall plaque with the line on .   Horse%20Poop  It was laid on top of the long level and the bubble was exactly the same .... if it would'nt have been she'd have been taken back for a refund . You can't get any more accurate than that .

Edited by mercenary1947 - May/05/2008 at 19:42
One Shot One Kill .... *S.O.F * Head Shots Only
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rkingston View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rkingston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 20:14

The one I have is a Wheeler Engineering unit and its a little off compared to 3 other levels I have tested it against. Might have just got one thats not right and needs to be swapped out. It has a normal bubble which tests perfect, and another bubble with a magnet glued onto it. This is the one thats off. Im sure the problem has to do with how they glued the magnet on.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 20:34
It's all voodoo, do what feels good.

if you miss, "I told you so!"

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Harriershot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harriershot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 22:31
RK, I have tested your method of using scope bases and ring halves to rest a bubble level on and I have found them unreliable. You can test this yourself by loosening the bases and pushing them to one side and then tightening the bolts and leveling the rifle in a gun vise that way. Then loosen the bolts and push the bases to the other side and check for level without moving the rifle and you will find your level will indicate differently. I have even checked with a bubble level on the base and then the ring halves and found inconsistant readings that way. (Leupold parts) 
On my Savage, I remove the action from the stock and there is a flatspot just behind the rear bolt guide with the bolt removed that I can rest my very sensitive Starret pocket level on to give me a truly level action.
Furthermore I have found that not all turret caps are true level when compared to a plumbline. I always do final alignment with a plumbline on the vertical reticle, while the rifle is level in a gun vise.
It takes me about three or four hours to put a scope on the way I do it, it usually results with POI at 100 yards within less than three inches of POA all the while without adjusting any of the turrets thus keeping the scope in its optical center.
 
Charlie
9/11/01, I will never forget. I lost 343 of my brothers.
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rkingston View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rkingston Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 06:24
RK, I have tested your method of using scope bases and ring halves to rest a bubble level on and I have found them unreliable. You can test this yourself by loosening the bases and pushing them to one side and then tightening the bolts and leveling the rifle in a gun vise that way. Then loosen the bolts and push the bases to the other side and check for level without moving the rifle and you will find your level will indicate differently. I have even checked with a bubble level on the base and then the ring halves and found inconsistant readings that way. (Leupold parts) 
 
I cant slide my bases around any once the torx screws are started. I did check the level on top of the bases as well as the ring halves and both agreed. One thing I failed to mention was I that I am using dual dovetails. You could have some play in the back ring half if you were using a conventional ring. I've never found a turret that wasn't level on a good scope but I hear what your saying. I always verify the reticle is true................., at least as true as the corner of the neighbors house!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 08:23
Originally posted by Harriershot Harriershot wrote:

RK, I have tested your method of using scope bases and ring halves to rest a bubble level on and I have found them unreliable. You can test this yourself by loosening the bases and pushing them to one side and then tightening the bolts and leveling the rifle in a gun vise that way. Then loosen the bolts and push the bases to the other side and check for level without moving the rifle and you will find your level will indicate differently. I have even checked with a bubble level on the base and then the ring halves and found inconsistant readings that way. (Leupold parts) 
On my Savage, I remove the action from the stock and there is a flatspot just behind the rear bolt guide with the bolt removed that I can rest my very sensitive Starret pocket level on to give me a truly level action.
Furthermore I have found that not all turret caps are true level when compared to a plumbline. I always do final alignment with a plumbline on the vertical reticle, while the rifle is level in a gun vise.
It takes me about three or four hours to put a scope on the way I do it, it usually results with POI at 100 yards within less than three inches of POA all the while without adjusting any of the turrets thus keeping the scope in its optical center.
 
Charlie
 
Hey Charlie
 
And I thought I was compulsive and detail oriented!!  Big%20Grin
 
Welcome to the forum.   Good post and food for thought and analysis. 
 
The integral dovetail scope base mounts on the Sakos are another good reason to buy one.
 
I'm not sure as to the absolute necessity of leveling the rifle as much as the necessity for leveling the reticles, but I certainly agree that it would be advantageous to do both.  Then it is only useful if you can transfer the level qualities to the range or field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercenary1947 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 09:50
 Harriershot ... and sakamoto .... many on here may think we goto alot of trouble and as HS said it takes a while to get them right .... but you only have to do it once and lock her down . I'd probably be correct in saying we end up hitting more kill zones though and you only miss that target once ... and it may be that one in a million you waited for all your life . Or your life may depend on it . An inacurate firearm is about as useless as a dull knife ... both could get you killed when you need them most .  Speer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harriershot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 22:00
Sakomoto, thanks for the welcome, I really enjoy sharing a forum with people  that have the same interest's and desire to get the most out of there rifle/scope combo.
To talk about the importance of a level rifle, in my opinion if you go through the trouble of aligning a scope on a plumbline, what good is it if the rifle is not level. I ended up putting one of those anti cant bubble level's on my scope to make sure the scope/rifle is level when I am shooting. Even though this anti cant level is mounted over the scope tube and is nearly useless when shooting I have it there anyway to give it my best effort to check for level. ( I will soon have a new anti cant device developed that will overcome the above problem) Anyway, I find when I go through the trouble of bore sighting to a 29 yard target while the rifle is level I will move the mounts left or right ( with signature rings) before using the windage screws in the rear mount, at the same time using the signature rings for elavation adjustments in an effort for POI to be within a few inches of POA at 100 yards while the scope is in its optical center. Of course this is after bedding the bases and lapping the front dovetail in its base so it will turn by hand so that when you are adjusting the rear windage screws in the rear base you do not put a torque on the scope tube.
After I have the bore sighting/scope alignment complete I check the vertical reticle against a 1/2 inch dia. red rope with a weight on the bottom for stability. I do this with the rope against a white wall, I line up the reticle just a tiny bit off to one side to create a gap between the reticle and the rope, I find this is the easiest way to get true verticle on the reticle, of course this is while the gun is in a vise and the action is constantly checked for level.
Please excuse the long rant but maybe it will help someone else with their setup procedure.
 
Enjoy
 
Charlie
9/11/01, I will never forget. I lost 343 of my brothers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 10:08
First and foremost, welcome.

Next, I see your point; however, as with everything, you get what you pay for.  With my Badger bases, there is NO PLAY in the base fit.  If the screws are in the receiver, loose or tight, there is no movement of the base at all.  And, with my Badger bases, I have had no problems mounting with bubble levels or with feeler gauges.

Next, the level you want is already out there. And they work great.  You can mount on the rail (assuming you have a rail) such that the weak eye can verify level white the strong eye doesn't leave the target.

In the end, cant is bad!  and this bubble is good!







Edited by Rancid Coolaid - May/08/2008 at 10:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 21:15
Hate to do it, but I have some new info.
 
 
 
which turned out to be level
 
and should line the scope up to the bore and tell you when the rifle is uncanted in the vise
 
The next problem which this instrument does not solve is to make sure the reticles are level while the vertical reticle instrument tells you the rifle is uncanted and the scope is aligned with the bore.  The way I did this was to put a 48" level on the fence about 20 yards away and line the horizontal reticle along it while the rifle was held thus.
 
Now the problem would be to duplicate the uncanted rifle and scope under field conditions.  To do this I installed the MicroLevel http://www.riflescopelevel.com/micro-level_features.html
 
 
which can be calibrated while the rifle is uncanted and then you use the lights in the top that can be used while focusing on the target, red light on either end showing the most cant, yellow light showing minor canting and the green light in the top middle showing the rifle is uncanted
 
There is a double sided tape under the device that holds it securely to the scope and the band that is tightened down to hold it in place.  It is secure but the device definitely needs to be protected from a hard knock.
 
It definitely works as advertised and doesn't look too out of place
 
The device is not really made for scopes with a large ocular but I did manage install it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harriershot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 21:43
Sak, I had the Micro level on my Savage. It is a reliable piece, but I found it to be impractical for hunting. It seemed any little knock would push the device off of level. What I did to help make it easy to confirm it was still in it's proper place was to use a level on top of the turret cap, if the cap was consistant with a plumbline, I would put a level on the turret cap and check to see if the light was green showing proper alignment.
I have an A-BOLT as well, the best way to absolutely make sure your action is level is to take it out of your rather kool looking stock, you can use a rubber band to attach a level to the under side of the action going across the the action rails, or you can lay your level across the two thin rails that are on each side of the safety tang. I found both places to be consistant with each other using my very sensitive Starret brand pocket level. 
On the level that was posted earlier that attaches to a rail leaving it out in plane view for the non shooting eye. in my opinion that is the only one that is going to work....
Except for two problems with that system, first if the...
Nevermind, I will soon have a device that will that will actually be a reliable, functional level that can be used for hunting and target. Stay tuned, announcements are soon coming.
 
Enjoy
Charlie
 
9/11/01, I will never forget. I lost 343 of my brothers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2008 at 22:24
It's a Sako action which has the dovetail integral base mounts which should be level.  I'm not sure they are.
 
But is the level you are getting this one?
 
Guns only have 2 enemies, rust and politicians
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