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Can a off the shelf beat a custom??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 13:36
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A very interesting debate is taking place here in South Africa.
 
Essentially we have this:
SA Hunters have set up a field shooting competition set to immitate hunting conditions. Life size animal targets are engaged from different positions and different distances.
All was fine, everbody pitched with their trusty old 30-06 and 3-9 telescope and factory ammo.
Then the top dogs and cheaters started the equipment race:
 
28 inch competition barrels, Stiller actions, 8-30x 56 Nightforce scopes, jewel triggers, calibers that launch 50gr bullets at 3800ft per sec etc  etc. About $7500 start-up cost.
 
The sport has reached meltdown, with only the top super guns winning matches. The average guy stays at home.
 
Now the talk is, bring in a new standard hunting rifle class with limitations and bigger target areas.
 
Now for the kicker"The top dogs are crying nonsense....todays off the shelf varminter/hunting rifle can shoot just as well as their super guns. It is the shooter that matters. And how much he practises.
 
Me thinks they just want to keep winning and they can because they have the money to buy big...like F! cars.
 
The question: Can one compete and consistently win against a custom built high velocity (3300ft per sec +) rifle and 30X Nightforce with an off the shelf varminter or hunting rifle and a 12X scope?
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 13:44
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DO i think its possible? sure but not likely for the average hunter.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 13:56
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SVT, that is the question:
 
Will the top three shooters, who regularly win and post scores off 850+ out of a possible 900 do the same and remain the top dogs if they went to a gun shop and bought a Rem varminter or Browning or Tikka and a Nikon or leupold or Bushnell 4-12 scope.
 
Say the top 4-10 guys keep using their lasers to shoot with, Nightforce 30X scope, Jewel trigger, recoil suppressor, bedded, actions trued etc.
 
Honestly, who would you put a $1000 on ? The top 3 or the 4-10 guys?
 
The next question is"If they would still win, then why did they import that match grade barrel, the Jewel trigger etc ?


Edited by 8shots - September/02/2011 at 13:59
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 14:11
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Optics Jedi Knight
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  No 1 rifle etc
 
 
My toerusting vir 2011 2011/05/17 17:02
Dit is wat ek vir die Top 50 en die aanloop daartoe gebruik het.

Geweer: Sako 75 Stainless steel, met ‘n Broughton 5C 1-12 twist loop in 6mmXC (.243 variasie).
Koeël: Nosler Ballistic tip 70gr @ 3500 FPS
Lading: 42gr S365
Primer: Federal 210
Doppe: Norma 6XC
Teleskoop Nightforce NSX 5.5 – 22 X 50
 
 
No 2
 
243 AI88gr Berger
1-10 Bartlein loop
S365 44.5@3400 ft/s
cci 250 mag primers
Winchester brass
Burris Tac 2 6.5-20 x50 mill dot
 
No 3
 
Sako 243
Pacnor super match barrel
Swarofski scope 3-18
 
No 5 243 AI
Geweer : RSA Aksie met Laminated Kolf
Loop : 28" Kriege 10 twist
Doppe : Winchester
Punte : 95g Sierra Match
Lading : 49g S385
Spoed : +- 3380v/s
 
No 6
Geweer: Tikka Light S/S .25 06 met 28,5" Broughton 5C loop en Jewell sneller
Teleskoop: Nightforce NXS 12 - 42 x 56 met MLR reticle met 1/8 MOA verstellings.
Lading: 56gr S361
Koeël: 100gr Sierra Match King
Spoed: 3270 ft/sek
Doppe: Nosler Competition
Slagdoppe: PMP Large Rifle
 
 
and so on...
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 14:17
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"The next question is"If they would still win, then why did they import that match grade barrel, the Jewel trigger etc ?"
 
  Exactly! Best way I can answer that would be with an example.  Yrs back a friend and me ran a S/S drag car.  As prizes went up high dollar competitors starting showing up.  They had the money so they had the resources to keep up with the lastest technologies.  And us and others,even with a few sponsors,couldn't compete.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 14:45
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I believe it's the shooter and not the gun; however if you take 2 shooters of the same skill level and give one an off-the-shelf gun and the other a custom built gun to match his specifications then the outcome will lean towards the custom equiped shooter. Don't believe me, then look at ALL the shooting games that started out geared towards off-the-shelf guns. First little changes were made and then it turns into an all out technology race.
Take IPSC for example, International Practical Shooting Confederation, how can they call it practical now. The first shooters were winning with standard 1911s and Mod. 15 S&Ws. Now if you don't show up with a pistol that looks like it came from a Star Wars set with some kind of optic on it sitting in something they call a holster but looks like a piece of surgical equipment, then you may as well stay at home. Yeah, it's practical, I wear it to the grocery every day, along with my jetpack. When was the last time saw an out of the box pistol take first in a IPSC match?
The good thing about the NRA taking over different competitions is the different classes they create for shooter skill and equipment so that a new shooter doesn't compete against an excellent and experienced shooter or an off-the-shelf gun doesn't compete against a custom gun. Competetors compete on a level playing field based on experience and/or equipment.
Ask these guys with the custom rifles to swap their custom rifles with someone who does well with their off-the-shelf rifle, and watch them squeal. Then suggest to everyone that classes be developed based on custom verses factory rifles, so the two don't compete against each other. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 15:02
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stock pistols win limited class all the time. You can even shoot one in the unlimited class if you want to see how good you can do against them. If winning is your goal then gaming becomes part of the method as much as any part of the gun system. Whether a shooter can use one type of set up to  get more points, or the race belongs to one type of machine is immaterial. Given the same course of fire the point spread between the top five shooters will be very narrow. Limiting the type of equip. has lead to shooting games were the course of fire are so boring its a wonder they attract any new shooters here in the usa (trap,all nra matches) any match shoot from a bench etc. Your matches will need a set of "standards" so the shooters can be classified, and at that point it will be possible to "grade" the winner of that class. Its never possible to match a custom built of equip. because its built around the need (gaming) which a piece of off the shelf equip will never provide. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 15:53
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Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

I believe it's the shooter and not the gun; however if you take 2 shooters of the same skill level and give one an off-the-shelf gun and the other a custom built gun to match his specifications then the outcome will lean towards the custom equiped shooter. Don't believe me, then look at ALL the shooting games that started out geared towards off-the-shelf guns. First little changes were made and then it turns into an all out technology race.
Take IPSC for example, International Practical Shooting Confederation, how can they call it practical now. The first shooters were winning with standard 1911s and Mod. 15 S&Ws. Now if you don't show up with a pistol that looks like it came from a Star Wars set with some kind of optic on it sitting in something they call a holster but looks like a piece of surgical equipment, then you may as well stay at home. Yeah, it's practical, I wear it to the grocery every day, along with my jetpack. When was the last time saw an out of the box pistol take first in a IPSC match?
The good thing about the NRA taking over different competitions is the different classes they create for shooter skill and equipment so that a new shooter doesn't compete against an excellent and experienced shooter or an off-the-shelf gun doesn't compete against a custom gun. Competetors compete on a level playing field based on experience and/or equipment.
Ask these guys with the custom rifles to swap their custom rifles with someone who does well with their off-the-shelf rifle, and watch them squeal. Then suggest to everyone that classes be developed based on custom verses factory rifles, so the two don't compete against each other. 


I agree.

I laughed my ass off.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 16:32
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This is an interesting question, which to answer from another angle (not really considering competition, but the whole picture for a shooter, including budget and allocation among various equipment) I'd say for most of the people I know an off-the-shelf rifle would be the better choice. That's because most of us have limited budgets. If given $7500 and my only choices were a $6000 custom rifle/scope and $1500 to spend on ammo over the next three years or a $2500 rifle/scope and $5000 to spend on ammo I'd go with the second option.

But I guess it depends on what your goals are. I've raced competitively in mountain biking, X-C and alpine skiing and equipment has played a part in all three. I've seen plenty of yahoos with pricy bikes that got left in the dust, but I've also experienced what I could do with better gear. In skiing, unless you can make the USSA B-team you will never strap a pair of hand-made boards on your feet unless you get them when they're all worn out. I got to try a pair for a day once - same cosmetics as a regular pair of Rossignols - but they were way better.

I don't know how you make shooting events more fair. Even with service rifle, there's going to be some guy with a new CMP-approved barrel on his M1 Garand that was chambered by a better gunsmith. And he'll be some dude who has 10-12 of them to choose from so he'll be using the best shooter of the lot. Or he takes all his dough and buys enough land to have a private range right out the back door and goes through 500 rounds a week. You just have to do the best you can with what you have.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 18:57
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In the shooting matches I have participated in one thing holds true. The shooters that spank me like a two year old in k-mart have "mad skillz". They would shoot circles around me regardless of our respective tools, within reason of course.

At the rimfire sillywet matches I used to do regularly I could crack the top 5 on a good day. I have a fairly well built 10/22. They top 3 or so guys had more in their scopes than I had in my whole package. Only bought the best match grade ammo, practiced a lot... etc etc. But if we traded guns they'd still beat me most of the time.

Actually the most fun I had at the silhouette matches was bringing two rifles and being my own team. I didn't even keep score, but I got to do twice the shooting!

Anyway, its the Indian, not the arrow. But a really good Indian with the best arrow will be a tiny bit better than a really good Indian with a normal arrow.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2011 at 20:45
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I am definitely envious of some of the rigs that I have to compete against. I also agree that  most the time, it is the Indian and not the arrow. Hopefully, on Sunday I will be able to do some catching up. But i can't really complain, as my rifle is not stock anymore. As a matter of fact only the trigger and receiver remain from my Savage mod 11F. And yes I am thinking about re-barreling down to a 6mm bullet(they really do buck the wind)... But I am also considering 6.5... Oh well, its only money...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2011 at 02:39
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My own experience has been that after I bought my Rem 308Win Varmint and jazzed it up, I did very well against the "normal" guys. Mostly in the top 5 or even winning.
But since I have started in the field shoots, the guys with the "super"guns have whipped my ass. I'm totally outgunned.
 
I'm leaning for the 6,5x284 myself.
 
And a 6-50x80 Nightforce scopeWink Or something that fell off the Hubble telescope.


Edited by 8shots - September/03/2011 at 02:43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2011 at 08:18
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Wouter, if you are really looking for an up-grade to your scope, I would take a serious look a S&B. NightForce just doesn't have enough in "glass" to justify the price increase over your Leuppy. Another one to look at is the Vortex Razor, if that is available. But IMHO, if you picked-up a S&B 5-25-56, all those NF guys would be saying it was you who was cheating... Even with your H&H, and non- efficient bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2011 at 09:17
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there will always be a technology race between the top 1/4 level of shooters, anything to get that last edge over another, or some little gadget that gets the job done better.
anyone that has spent 10,000 hrs at their chosen hobby will be good, whether they shoot pro or not. if you haven't put the time in, equip on any level will be underutilized. . Disagree with the NF,leo, s&b however. I shoot all 3 and the NF really is that much better than a leo. But the difference between the NF and the s$b is only slight in the glass, but equal in the controls.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/03/2011 at 13:50
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That part about the scope was a bit tongue in cheek for me. At the moment my Leupy is good enough for me. I am however going to upgrade ? to a flatter shooter.
 
See my new thread on this.
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A good shooter definately makes a difference,. But if you spend all that money you will definately have a better rifle than an off the shelf, there will be the exceptions though. Seen a few off the shelfs that could compete with any supergun.

I came first in the Bethal branch of the SA Hunters and game Conservation Hatzan shoot 3 weeks ago with a Ruger RBZ 223 rem. You have to fire 2 three shots groups within a set time at 100m. My 2 groups averaged 10.27mm, Guys with the varmit class rifles had to shoot at 200m. Makes it more fair for me, best group from them was 25.67mm.

Regards Chris
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2011 at 17:12
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Experience will do more than any custom rifle will, and at some point, just like scopes, there is a line where the cost vs improvement dwindles significantly in customs.  The rifles of today off the shelf are far more accurate as a whole than they were years ago.  And now they are producing certain models that are a very good baseline for competition shooting, will it beat a custom? Possibily, but not probable, but it is fun trying isn't it?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2011 at 17:15
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

That part about the scope was a bit tongue in cheek for me. At the moment my Leupy is good enough for me. I am however going to upgrade ? to a flatter shooter.
 

See my new thread on this.


Where's your new thread?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2011 at 17:17
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