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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 10:57
BlackSwan View Drop Down
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 " The station wagon rumbled to a skidding stop, my father “Shem” as he was known - got out of the front seat with his Eddystone 30-06 under open sights and killed both Antelope – now on the run – in fewer than 100 yards. They were lying within 15 yards of each other. The bolt cycled so fast I thought Dr. V had shot as well, but only one rifle had fired – Dad’s.

He is 98 now and relives his hunting days – of which there were many – and I am sure this day was among them. It is not with resentment, but sadness that I see that he did not teach his sons his skill – or more than a modicum of safety.

Shem was a wild child of the west – raised one step from the heart of the Mormon church -  the son of a mother with too many children, and an accountant father heavily involved in the “Matters of the Kingdom “. He learned to shoot by trial, error, hunger, and natural skill.  At 15 years of age he killed a mountain sheep with his .22 and packed the hind quarters 20 miles to home.  He shot a rifle like most men visualize shooting a shotgun. His skill with a shotgun was legendary. He knew his 20ga Remington Model 17 would drop birds when the 12ga guys had let them go over the hill."

Dad was a skilled wing-shooter - buy I am not sure how much he really understood of the gun itself. All this is leading to a question I have had rattling about in the back of my mind as I tighten screws and make new loads:

Men of every age have defined themselves in terms of the hunt, the battle - and above all skill with the weapon(s) of the day. One could not be a gentleman in the 17th century without understanding the rules and skills of sword play. I think that in the Neolithic a young male would not eat with the men until he had hunted, and killed, and shown skill and pluck.

Q: How do we define the  minimum weapons skill of the  year 2006? What are the basic capabilities of todays polite society?



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 22:22
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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30 years ago I would have said we were all screwed. with gun control, changing values systems, and open range changing. It is really refreshing to see the kids these days having bumper stickers that say -- gun control is using 2 hands or equivalant--- or to read on this or another website two kids arguing about which light works best on an ar-- I think its great. --hard to answer that accross the board- but was fortunate to teach each of my  kids at least the equivalent of the first course of rifle,pistol,shotgun at Gunsite. instead of getting a new watch at high school grad. they got either a custom 1911 colt, or similiar, shotgun and rifle of their choice. they picked either a hunting tool or self defense depending on which way they leaned.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 04:56
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Most white male South Africans aged 35 and older, had undergone compulsory military training. It was accepted that all of us had more then a basic knowledge of firarms and shooting. On a particular hunt or shoot, one would without thinking or explaining hand a firearm to youngsters aged 18 or older. They knew how to safely handle a firearm.
It came as a rude wake-up call a while ago when some-one handed a rifle to such a "new" youngster who had not done military training (since Mandela swam off Robben Island it is no longer compulsory to do military training). Well this person did not know what to do, how to load the rifle, how to aim with it etc. It was a huge shock to my system. I see the same with guys dating my daughters, they have no idea how to operate a firearm, nor any inclination.
Having said that, most males growing up on farms or in a household with a hunting/shooting father, gets the itch sooner or later and gets to know firearms.
I believe it is our duty to keep the young in the sport. I have no son of my own, but a 14 year old that visited my daughter is very keen. So I have taken him under my wing and he now shoots clays with a shotgun and uses my 30-06 on targets. He actually has a very good natural talent, hiiting his very first clay he ever shot at.
Unfortunatley he is now 16 and has discovered girls, but he will be back......
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 08:36
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I have found with my sons that the transition from the PC based RPB games to the real thing - the recoil, feel and handling is amazing to them - they are all smiles and biceps.

My question is meant to be more technical than just that 'I should want to teach my kid. '

Starting with confrontations close to distant:
       Hand to hand -

       Blade to blade-

       handgun/pistol

       shotgun

       close rifle

       precision rifle

Rather than a Chuck Taylor (= elite fighting set) Master class.  I would like do find a consensus of what defines a civilian-based set of skills which say "prepared" or to borrow a phrase from the Bourne movie "I can tell that guy at the bar can handle himself".

 This consensus- if written well -would be a format for training at range - so one does not just plink - or go out shooting groups. I noticed from another thread 'what kind of shooting do you do?' - fairly intelligent shooters do not see their shooting as any kind of training. The skill we are talking about should not be felt to just apply to defense - they should also make one a skilled hunter.  Our weapons have always been about both.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 07:57
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its about crisis control - or the interaction - not the tactical methodology. the art of "distancing" is an age old martial arts concept, from the infighting of wing chun, and choy la fut, to the longer range of long fist. defensive perimeter is one american way of putting it. Degree of threat preception is another, virtually all communnication is semiphoric, from a wave at a distance to the #1 sign in the face. Speaking of polite society, if a general set of rules did exist and was common knowledge the chances of winning the outcome would only be 33% (both sides would have roughly the same talents or a Nash equilibrium) which would lead to the Japanese concept of "first strike". (because one could sense the attack before it happened). Game theory calls this "fast starters". So -- just curious did you want to stay with just the tactical methods involved in the distancing??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 09:54
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 Seems like the ghetto gangs know more about firearms here in the U.S.A than the average kid . Except when they hold their handguns movie style ... sideways and jam them . They're worried more about a pair of $250.00 sneakers every year and video games .  Some of my son's friends love looking at my firearms .... especially the parkerized top folding 870 for some reason .... but don't want to take the time to go shooting . I offer .... they're " much too busy now " ... seems they live in a movie/video game world . And their girlfriends hate the fact I'll kill Bambi's daddy  ... so much hype today ... they say they'll never allow a gun in their house .... darned liberal women ! Darned  is'nt the word I wanted to use .... but forum rules ! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 10:54
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to break down what your saying from your initial post, shooting like that is the epitome of what it is all about.:: here’s my training regime:

 
I started using a Marlin 22LR with my Dad when I was 9, now I use a Savage Rifle (.25-06), BLR (30-06), and Remington 870 12ga. – I learn to use all of them proficiently without a scope first - That is my distancing. If anyone/anything gets closer, I pull out my derringer, or just throw dirt in their eyes. And if I were younger I might learn some Jujitsu or TaiQuanDont hit me. Dale, you are my idle.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 12:00
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Interesting commentary...ALL shooting that I do is training, just as all karate, kickboxing, martial arts (which shooting, with gun or bow, is a part of, whether most think of it that way or not) is "training"...until it has to be applied "for real".  "Hunting" of all forms is training, for that time when it may have to be applied for more than taking game for "sport".  Hunting is a means of confirming some mastery of some element of training, I eat what I shoot, and learn from each encounter.  Is there something different?
I have 4 daughters...they are all accomplished shooters, my wife is, as well. 
We create and allow the "world we live in." 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 13:37
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Originally posted by Charlie-bolted Charlie-bolted wrote:

 
. And if I were younger I might learn some Jujitsu or TaiQuanDont hit me. Dale, you are my idle.

 

 
note spelling of idle..
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 13:40
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Saw that Dale, kind of a Freudian slip - you may be idle but you're still an idol (no feet of clay I hope).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 13:48
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Good input kickboxer! - In my experience the best training is in the aftermath of the 'for real' events that we replay, analyze and teach about, as in my experience I wrote about in the first post. Perhaps all life is training.
You must agree with Dale about the time/distance axis. Dale is a mathematician at heart. I am a human biologist - day in and day out. The more I look at it - the more this is starting to look like a textbook written by multiple contributors - each with their own specialty/perspective.
Maybe too large for this forum?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 13:53
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The irony of life is:

    The young have  skills- they do not understand.

    Us old guys understand - but have lost the skills.

BlackSwan


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 13:59
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Not sure how to think of this.  Have shot various forms of firearms all my life.  My boys now in their early 30's have as well.  In terms of training vis-a-vis gun handling we are fairly proficient.  However it is a very different matter to apply this training to human targets; that requires a certain discipline of the mind that we have not yet had to acquire.  Military/LE professionals presumedly have this exposure, I would venture that the population at large has been insulated from this need either by good luck or through the vigilance of others.
 
I am sure that under certain circumstances we could make this leap if called upon to defend self and family but I have not purposely trained for it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 15:00
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yeah, slipped on spelling...Laser%20Zap I was first to be eliminated in the spelling B's..

Big%20Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 15:02
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That's ok Charlie, I'm sure Dale appreciates the message!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 18:07
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Let us look at it from a more philosophical approach:

 

Thanks to my reading of Ayn Rand philosophy:

1.      Morality is the social extension of ethics

2.      Ethics as one of the 5 branches of philosophy is the expression of values, ie what do you hold dear?

3.      Whatever you value cannot be held without placing YOUR LIFE as the FIRST VALUE!

4.      To claim you have ’sacrificed ‘is either a betrayal of your stated values – or a racket.  You scrimp and save to send your son to Harvard – because you value his achievement -  if you then claim that you ‘sacrificed’ for him, implies that there were other goals you valued more highly – which you obviously did not.     
Would you ‘sacrifice’ you life in order to avoid dealing with the killing of another human  to preserve it?

5.      To train to kill defensively is an important expression of your will to live and move forward those things you value in life and society. By definition someone you need to defend your life from - seeks to take it! There are only a few good reasons to kill another human – this one leads the list.

Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Not sure how to think of this.  Have shot various forms of firearms all my life.  My boys now in their early 30's have as well.  In terms of training vis-a-vis gun handling we are fairly proficient.  However it is a very different matter to apply this training to human targets; that requires a certain discipline of the mind that we have not yet had to acquire.  Military/LE professionals presumedly have this exposure, I would venture that the population at large has been insulated from this need either by good luck or through the vigilance of others.
 
I am sure that under certain circumstances we could make this leap if called upon to defend self and family but I have not purposely trained for it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 19:16
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Will have to give this some thought.  Morality is rather an ambiguous term - whose morality? Whose code of conduct and ethics?  Varies widely across cultures, societies and time and not everyone would agree that self comes before all.

Edited by Dogger - May/07/2008 at 19:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 22:19
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Black Swan, I am a devotee of Ayn Rand, as well. Excellent analogy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 08:24
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My point is just the opposite of your reply Dogger - that is that the requirement to defend ones life is an ethical imperative that extends across all of human history and into every culture.
You think proudly of your Canadian heritage as non-violent - and you should. Your largely peaceful culture lies just a few short miles across the lakes from Detriot - the murder capital of the USA. Do you really think your culture is that far removed from the mean streets? I know there is increasing largely race-based gang violence in Calgary and Vancouver.

In 1974 I was working construction just outside of Edmonton - the discussion turned to guns, violence, and self defense - I asked one of my buddies his opinion - his reply was that he could not take any other persons life to save his own - when the choice came to the preservation of the life of his wife or child - he hesitated then gave the same answer. My reflex reply was "then you are less of a man than I thought you were".
At least he was clear enough to state a position. I am not sure if he could carry through with his pacifism. I am sure that in many circumstances his approach may work.

I agree with Louis L'Amour - that "culture is a thin veneer on our species" all I am suggesting is to take a peek under the veneer and own what is there.

I find it rather odd that Canadians are very proud of their military history - Vimy Ridge Dieppe, Normandie. You honor and care for your vets better than the US. At the same time do not want to look at the killing very closely.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 09:53
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Tagged!!!

interesting thought processes going on here!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 10:11
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For a little perspective:  my grandfather was a WWI vet wounded at Vimy, my father was a WWII vet wounded at Monte Casino, both were proud to serve their country & King but did not glory in some of the baser requirements.  They took life as required but didn't celebrate it - a necessary means to an end.  I don't mean to sound critical here but not sure how you find this "odd".  Why would it be necessary "to look at the killing very closely" and who would it benefit from it unless you're viewing it from a purely academic standpoint.
 
I have no misconceptions about our "culture" being immune from violence, this is something that has dramatically increased through gang related drug activity since the 60's and becomes more evident everyday when one reads the newspaper - I won't elaborate on the obvious reasons why here.  Note that in my original post I said under the right (or wrong if you prefer) circumstances we would take life to preserve self & family.  Certainly not a threshold to be crossed lightly with the incumbent moral and legal implications.
 
Having said that I must confess that I have not deliberately trained for this event and pray the day never comes.  However would also like to think I'm a bit of a pragmatist and have a firearm within easy reach in the bedroom.
 
Interesting discussion although may be in the wrong forum.


Edited by Dogger - May/08/2008 at 10:12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 11:20
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As an instructor/practitioner of several martial endeavors, I can tell you that no one who has not trained to fight can be effective against someone who has.  I once thought I was proficient with a pistol, until I started shooting IDPA...what a wakeup call.  There is a "luck" factor that sometimes intervenes, but I would not count on it.  Your quote by Teddy Roosevelt has, unfortunately, been stressed to the utmost, to the point of unreason, on the latter, little to none on the former.  I think there is a forum for "almost anything goes that might better suit this, but it is fun, and I hope in good nature. 
"The race is not always to the strong, nor the battle to the swift...but that is the way to bet."  Can't remember who said it, but believe it was an American general. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 11:44
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Good points kickboxer. 
 
I hope our most likely antagonists do not fall into the group that has undergone rigorous training.  Most  by definition would lack the requisite discipline.
I have no martial training so would be no contest against a younger aggressor especially since we cannot carry weapons;  within my home however, if there was sufficient warning it would be a different matter.  In Ontario you had better be sure that your opponent was armed before you take an irrevocable step (or have a throw down handy!).  Unfortunately our laws tend to take an adversarial stance to those who protect themselves through the use of deadly force.
 
Always liked the expression:  "I would rather be judged by 12 men than be carried by six"
 
p.s. the Rooseveldt quote is a tag line beneath my posts and appears on all


Edited by Dogger - May/08/2008 at 15:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 14:44
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One of the conundrums we now face are young retuning members of the military who are trained in modern warfare who re-join - or never left their gang based social group. I am afraid the costs of this ill - conceived conflict will haunt us in many ways & for years to come.

BlackSwan
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2008 at 16:40
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That is where I was leading...we no longer are facing a group of untrained home invaders. The criminal element is, more and more, well trained, well armed, BAD intentioned and, due to a complete abdication of responsibility by parents, almost without remorse for any perverted act. I see mere babes so selfish one would believe they were actually trained that way...some are, but it is mostly just negligence.
Sad days before it gets better.
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