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Bye Bye Leupold..........

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 15:51
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Hello Gentlemen

 

Me and my family grew up shooting Leupolds on our hunting rifles.

Leupolds price increases and lack of features have forced us to move

on to Burris Optics for all of our hunting needs. We have had similar

success with Burris and really appreciate the added features and price.

Ieupold in my opinion is destined for failure if they continue with the trend

we have seen in the last several years, there is very good competition in

the optics world now days with many a fine scope at a reasonable price.

 

Adios Leupold

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 17:27
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I still believe that Leupold makes a very fine scope.  However, I agree that they are over priced for what you get.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 18:09
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I am not sure I am happy with some changes happening at Burris nowadays, but we'll see what happens.

 

They do have a very compelling product line, though, and I have a few of their scopes.

 

I am certainly not a big fan of Leupold.

 

My long time favourite has been Sightron, but they've been increasing prices, so I might demote them a bit.  Along with Sightron S2 I am impressed with the value proposition of Elite 4200 and Grand Slam.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 18:16
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Hello Koshkin

 

Could you please elaborate on the changes burris is making that you dislike.

I realy value your opinion and respect alot of your posts.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 18:27
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There is nothing cocnrete yet.  I've been happy with their products, but there is a rumor that they are planning to or are already outsourcing the production of some of their riflescopes to a Japanese assembler (a reinvented Hakko apparently).  Also, I do not like some of the marketing gimmicks that have been happening.  In my mind their XTR line-up is mostly a marketing gimmick.

 

Like I said, nothing concrete, but I am watching carefully.  At the moment I have no problem buying Burris scopes without any reservations (I just bought one, and I'll be buying more), but I can't help but be wary of the future, so to speak.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 18:31
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Thank you Koshkin for the heads up. I will also keep a eye out on this issue.

I believe outsourcing is a tragedy in todays market and leads to inferior products.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 18:39
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I have no problem with oursourcing if the quality is maintained.  If the quality drops, I go to a competitor.

 

God bless capitalism.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 18:52
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There is a certain pride that goes into a product, its history, its emplyees,

at the time of construction. I believe things are never the same ounce this

harmony is interrupted. I will not take my chances to find out if the product

is good if burris takes this route.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 19:59
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Just ordered the Burris FFII Tac.  Also own a Sightron.  Now isn't Sightron made in Japan?  And glass for the Burris is Japanese.  I suspect the Japanese do OK.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 20:45
koshkin View Drop Down
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A lot of scopes are made in Japan and I have no problem with Japanese made scopes whatsoever.  Some of my favourites are made there, such as the three that I mentioned in a post above: Elite 4200, Grand Slam and Sightron S2.

 

I am just concerned when a manufacturer that was assembling scopes in their own factory starts going to a subcontractor.  I am not sure if Burris is doing this; I just heard such rumor and I am watching out for it.  WHen Burris moved the production of FFII scopes to the Phillipines they moved the whole factory there and trained the labor.  But subcontracting to Japan Optics Limited (apparently, formerly known as Hakko) can have dire consequences.  I am confident that they can make a very fine scope, and I am sure they do, but if Burris people do not pay enough for quality they will end up with reincarnated Springfield Armory scopes which were hit and miss.

 

Anyhow, time will tell.  If Burris pays enough attention to quality, it makes no difference where the scope is made.  It is just something to watch out for.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 21:12
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I know I will take my Light Optical Works 4200's anyday of the week over Leupold's offerings and I knew this all along.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 21:12
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Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

Hello Gentlemen

 

Me and my family grew up shooting Leupolds  ....

 

Adios Leupold

 

My family and I grew up shooting Leupolds -----    still do ---- Leupold will be here when you and I aren't, and with a little education you might be able to fully appreciate the quality Leupold offers they have several very useful reticles.

By the way do you remember who bombed Pearl Harbor? Keep sending factories over seas and who do you think you are going to work for.

 

Adios Jobs 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 21:21
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Urimaginaryfrnd, do you remember what happened 4 years latter? Hiroshima, Nagasaki? My family grew up without a car. Did you post this with a American made computer? Really sounds silly doesn't it. 

 

Veree Truee your

 

Roy

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 21:42
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I remember who bombed Pearl Harbor, although that will not affect my decision a whole lot.  I have no problem though with it effecting yours.  If you've been around long enough, you'll recall that I do not buy German and French products when there is any alternative.  I am Jewish and most of my family perished during the Holocaust.  Currently, Germany and France do a very good job of boycotting Israeli products and supporting Muslim terrorists who are trying to destroy Israel (and are not fans of US either).

 

I am not planning to force my views on anyone else and I fully admit that Germans make good glass.  However, they are not in any way, shape or form getting my money.  I will not buy a German car either and that goes for other products as well.

 

As for outsourcing, a company is there to make money.  In order to make money, it has to offer the best value package to the customer.  For a fiercely patritotic crowd, like rifle shooters, "Made in America" often means a lot, and I assure you it is factored in when manufacturers decide on whether to move manufacturing offshore or not.  It is their right to do what they think makes the best economic sense, and it is your right to support or not support a particular manufacturer.  If enough people only buy products that are made in US there will always be some people making scopes in US.  However, expect to pay a healthy premium for that "Made in US" label.  Manufacturers will carefully evaluate how much that label is worth to you and charge accordingly.  That's straight out of supply and demand theory.  For comparable price I will always pick a US product.  However, I am not willing to pay a very substantial premium for a US made scope vs a Japanese made scope. 

 

I think Leupold is overpriced for what it is.  To get my business they will either have to drop prices or improve optical quality.  That having been said, I think Leupold has improved qulity last few years and VX-L I looked at recently had very nice glass (although that funky objective bell is a turn off for me).  SImilarly, I've seen some better prices lately for the VX-III and that is beginnig to look more attractive.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2006 at 23:34
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Urimaginaryfriend

 

I still love Leupold and I love my country but Koshkin is right, it seems Leupold is

more concerned with making a profit than keeping its loyal followers like me.

I have moved on to Burris Signature select becuse it is US made, and offers more

for the money, leupold does not(period).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 01:20
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Urimaginaryfrnd, .

Your knowledge has already been exposed.

 

 

 

SVD666 godless in this dominion of sin.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 10:05
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Why I like Leupold - My 30 year old 4X on my 30-30 has been sighted in twice; once when I put it on 30 years ago and again 10 years ago when I dropped it 20 feet from a tree stand and the scope hit a pine stump.  It wasn't very far off.  Other than that, it has always shot where I point it.  All the other Leupolds since then have always done exactly what I wanted them to, every time.  My latest, a VX L 3.5-10X50, will do the same I expect, and is the most innovative scope to come along in a while.  I've even gotten used to the objective shape. Leupold has just introduced some innovative rangefinders and upgraded their binoculars and spotting scopes.  That doesn't sound like a company that's on it's way out to me. As far as Leupold's prices go, a product is worth what people will pay for it.  There must be a lot of people out there like me who think they are worth what they cost.

 

As far is Burris goes, I have several and they are good scopes.  Their handgun scopes are the best. I wish they'd fix their matte finish so it doesn't scratch when anything touches it.  As far as price goes, there's not a huge difference between a Signature Select 3-10X40 and a VX III 3.5-10X40, or a Black Diamond and a Leupold 30mm LR.

 

There's lots of nice scopes out there.  The Conquest is great to look through, but I don't like the zoom ring or the eyepiece.  Most Bushnell and Burris are too big.  The Weaver GS is a good scope, but I can't stand those zoom rings.  Some Nikons are good, but I've never liked one enough to keep it very long.  The Euros are great, but talk about overpriced!  That's a case where I won't pay what they charge (and I have some of the same problems with Germany and France as Koshkin). 

 

If I were investing in an optics company, I'd feel safe putting my money in Leupold.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 11:52
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Hello myates

 

I love Leupold to. But in todays market here is a reality senario.

 

Burris SS 4- 16- 44 AO Ballistic Mil dot= $480.

Leupold VXIII 4- 14- 40 Duplex =$499

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 13:12
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Sorry you feel that way, personally can't wait to get the new VL 6.5x20 x56 with varmit reticle I have on order, (don't think they are out yet). Coil springs, krypton gas real star trekky- let you know how much better it is than Burris/
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 13:30
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Hello Dale

 

That scope is going to be over a grand.

Do you really think it is going to be that

much better for more than double the

price.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 16:48
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One of the biggest problems with recreational scopes to date has been the use of lever or finger springs holding the elevation and windage and in most cases not even at 90 degrees instead of something like silicone chrome self collapsing. In addition thermal shock from even n2, while not a problem most of the time, gives a sense of comfort using Krypton. To keep going,  1/10 MOA adjustment, index matched lenses, 56 mm, a grand seems fair in view of the 2000+ I've thrown at USO and S&B. Anyway one of my objectives is comparing the LV to these scopes
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 16:54
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Let us know how it compares to other scopes in your arsenal, Dale.

 

One note though is regarding "index matched lenses".  Has anyone figured out what Leupold really means by that phrase?  From what I've seen it looks like one of their trademarked phrases to describe a particular optical system they use in VX-III scope.

 

Also, why is there thermal shock from N2?  I am not sure I understand what you mean there.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 17:20
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Hello Dale

 

Those features sound great for Benchrest type of shooting.

I am still a Leupold fan . I still use my old Leupold tactical

scopes on tactical rifles. I am interested in your research

and to see what direction Leupold is going to take..

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 18:44
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Nitrogen like krypton is a diatomic gas, however it is much larger. Dry nitrogen flush was introduced by Leo to stop the condensation of water vapor due to large swings in temp, however, being a much smaller gas and having a higher velocity than k2, it can and will leak over a period of time. Leo is taking a step forward by using the Krypton/Argon flush in the LV series.(hope this trickles down). Optical transmission maximizes at certain wavelengths thru transparent objects depending on their physical properties. A group lense made at one place may not maximize at the same wavelength as a lens or group from another. Leo is making an attempt at actually measuring the lens for this parameter before assembly, then if found the same the lenses elements are used as a "group" thus match indexed lenses. (the really technical reason can be found by searching MTF is this forum -I think that is what I uploaded it under, and has to do with the radial roll frequency of the eye-note I said frequency not wavelength this time). Leo is also coating the corners (edges) black to cut down on stray refraction.

As a side note totally unrelated but I don't want to start a new topic (besides I have your attention). My 4.5x14 conquest gave up the ghost after 800 rounds on an AR10. It started doing the 2 step- two shots on 1 2-4 inches to the right. Yea I know the lemon theory- It has been replace by a 4.5X14 M4

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2006 at 19:27
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Dale, I understand the differences between gases.  I do not understand what thermal shock has to do with it.  As a side note, Krypton (like most noble gases) does not generally form diatomic molecules.  Krypton gas is mostly single atoms.  It does, under certain conditions, form a weak bond with Argon which, I suspect, would be the primary reason for using a Krypton/Argon mixture.  Krypton/Argon mixture will also leak, although it will take longer than N2.  Another thing to note is that the primary problem with sealing a scope is not the gas inside leaking out, but rather the gas from the outside leaking in.

 

As far as optical transmission goes, when lens makers buy glass from glass makers, they tend to get a pretty complete set of physical and optical properties for that particular melt.  Both Ohara and Schott provide this with every order of reasonable size (I used to buy glass from both for the stuff I was making a few years ago).  They will give you a huge database of every glass type they make with every parameter they measure, and they will check every melt against the data in the database so that you could build your model based on quoted parameters and either accept or reject every melt based on how close it is to the quoted parameters.  If the particular glass you want is not one of their standard offereings, they will quoet you on the particular properties of a completely custom glass if you are a large enough customer.  When you build your computer model of an optical system, you take into account the exact optical properties of each piece of glass (you also take into account the environment the glass is in, it will have slightly different spectral reflectivity if it is surrounded by N2 or by Ar/Kr mix, which brings in another interesting point: air is mostly N2, so as it leaks out and gets displaced by oxygen, water, etc there is little optical difference.  However, as Argon/Krypton gets displaced with air there will be a more noticeable effect, although I expect it to be rather small for visible light).  Coatings that are applied also have to be tuned to the composition of the particular glass used. I would be absolutely shocked if EVERY half-ass legit manufacturer of scopes and binoculras did not do this exact thing since they all use the same software (for example both OSLO and Code V allow you to take all of the optical properties of the lenses into consideration) and more or less the same glass suppliers.  They all have slightly different optical models using slightly different glass and coatings, but they all have access to the same data.

 

Leupold simply seems to be the first to use it as a marketing tool.

 

As for your Conquest, send it back to Zeiss and tell them to fix it.  It is a German scope though, so as far as I am concerned: good riddance.

 

ILya

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