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BUYING HUNTING BINOCULARS

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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by pahuntnut pahuntnut wrote:

Yes I know the dramatic increase in price after $500 is not proportional to optical quality.  However, I asked in another post if anyone ever sold their alpha's and just went with a less expensive bin and never really got an answer. Koshkin seemed to indicate the people in his test picked the alpha's and I was curious. i dont own any alpha glass and have no personal agenda. Not being as experienced as most on this forum when it comes to optics, It is hard for me to understand how a $400 bin can come very close to a $2000 bin. On another forum a person said they were an optometrist and said the human eye can only do so much? So no matter how they improve optics we will not really be able to appreciate it because we have limitations.  

I do not think I made any mentino on the brands of the binoculars in question.

As a general rule, I would suggest you first figure out which configuration you want and then go on to determine the brand/make.

As far as what I recommend these days (as John pointed out, the marketplace changes quickly and my recommendations change with it), you get the most for your money with a 8x42, since there are a lot of options there.  With this configuration I have two recommendations:
 -under $500: Hawke Frontier ED 8x43
 -over $500: Vortex Razor 8x42 or 8.5x50

With 7x42, there are not nearly as many choices and the best one for the money is Meopta Meostar.  

Getting a more expensive binocular than the three I mention might get you marginally better performance, but it is a difference that you have to look for and that makes no practical difference I can think of.

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ccoker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 13:13
why wouldn't the Meopta count as "alpha" ?
price tag?
don't they make the glass for Swarovski ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahuntnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 13:22
Well just want to say thanks to all of you for you comments and your patience with me.  Your right when you summized I was experiencing decision lock.   
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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 13:39
Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

why wouldn't the Meopta count as "alpha" ?
price tag?
don't they make the glass for Swarovski ?



"Alpha" usually refers to Swarovski, Zeiss and Leica.  As for Meopta making glass for Swarovski, I am not aware of that, although I have heard that mentioned in relation to Swaro spotters.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 15:05
The only thing I know for sure is that Meopta makes most of the lenses for the Zeiss Conquest riflescopes. Zeiss makes the erector lenses and tube, Meopta makes the rest of the lenses and scope tube, adjustment parts, etc. Or at least that is what the people told me when I inquired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 15:23

Would also like to comment that I am not totally sure that all the alphas are tougher than lesser-priced binoculars. This is based on some personal experience as well as a lot of contact with sporting goods dealers, North American guides and African professional hunters.

Right now my personal choices as the very best buys are the top Zen Rays and Hawkes in the sub-$500 class, and the Meopta Meostars in the sub-$1000 class. I have used the Zen Rays and Hawkes a lot lately (and the Zen Rays recently for 10 days in Alaska) and have had no problems, but have used a 10x42 Meostar for several years on three continents, and they are about as tough as binoculars get.

But I have used a bunch of supposedly sub-alpha binoculars from other companies such as Alpen, Bushnell, Leupold, Nikon, Pentax, Weaver, etc. as well. And in a year or two the market will change.
 
One thing that I didn't mention in the article is that some binoculars simply do not mesh well with some users. One of my favorites is a Nikon Premier 8x32 that I've used hard for a number of years now. A friend bought one because of my recommendation, and for some reason they simply did not suit his eyes at all and he had to return them. In fact I believe he tried two, thinking the first must have been defective.
 
We are all different in terms of binocular fit, color perception and the "feel" of binoculars, so the ideal situation is to find a store that stocks a lot of binoculars and hold and look through them all. That is often impossible, however, so the next best thing is to order a binocular in your price range from a repurable company such as SWFA that is willing to take returns and see if it works. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 15:55

pahuntnut,

If I were you, I would buy either the Meopta Meostar 8X42 or the Vortex Razor 8X42, and would base the decision on which one you prefer ergonomically.  You probably won't notice a significant difference optically.  I personally like the Razor slightly better because it has a little better CA control, a little more neutral color rendition, it's about $150 less expensive, and I like the eyecups better.  However, the Meostar has the appearance of maybe being more ruggedly built, having similar construction and heft as the Leica Trinovids and Swaro SLCs.  The Zen, Hawke, and Promaster ED bins are unbeatable in their price range, but I slightly prefer the image through the Meostar and Razor, both of which have a sharper field edge and greater depth of field.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahuntnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/11/2009 at 18:16
I own Monarchs in 8x42 and really like them. What started all this is an upcoming elk hunt werer i will be in a drop camp and all transportation will be on foot. so I started to look for a more compact glass. But the companies i have it narrowed down to are Meopta, vortex, and Zens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 09:02
This is easily my favorite current optics thread in any forum.
 
Very well done article John. I happen to read this after replying to PaHuntnut and his question about selling an Alpha for something less expensvie.
 
Everything said here in this thread coincides perfectly with my own findings. In my opinion for 99% of the users out there in any activity the likes of the open-bridge ED binoculars such as the Hawke Frontier ED, Zen Ray ED2, Promaster Infiniti Elite ELX, Atlas Optics Intrepid and the Meopta Meostars truly represent the best overall values out there right now. Their optical performance is so good at any price that it is hard to justify spending any more.
 
I am on a bit of a Meopta-kick at the moment as I have their 8x32s, 8x42s, 10x50s and 8x56s on hand. I am hoping to do a bit of a comparative piece on them.
 
More to follow.
 
;)


Edited by FrankD - September/12/2009 at 09:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D. Bravo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 15:09
I read an article by Ron Spomer one time that stated ED glass would only show an improvement over regular glass in  the power range of 15 or above.  Does anyone (Koshkin) have a comment about that?  I purchased the 8X42 razors after reading the evaluations on this forum and I like them.  I had been looking at the Swaros EL, not that I could afford them, but I liked the design and she didn't even buy the " I saved $800.00 defense.  I guess Mercedes and Jaguar are something she can get more use out of.         
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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 15:16
Originally posted by D. Bravo D. Bravo wrote:

I read an article by Ron Spomer one time that stated ED glass would only show an improvement over regular glass in  the power range of 15 or above.  Does anyone (Koshkin) have a comment about that?  I purchased the 8X42 razors after reading the evaluations on this forum and I like them.  I had been looking at the Swaros EL, not that I could afford them, but I liked the design and she didn't even buy the " I saved $800.00 defense.  I guess Mercedes and Jaguar are something she can get more use out of.         

Mr Spomer was over simplifying things a bit.
The higher the magnification the more difficult it is to control chromatic aberration.  However, properly utilized ED glass has an effect at lower magnifications as well and that effect is noticeable.  Perhaps, most importantly, usage of ED glass often allows for fewer optical elements in the design makng the overall piece lighter and easier to build.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 19:35
Ditto on ILya's comments. The benefits of ED glass are more pronounced optically as you move up the magnification range but even using ED/FL glass in a 7x binocular can show a marked improvement over the same binocular without it. These improvements typically come in the form of increased contrast, color representation and apparent sharpness.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Barsness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 21:11

I would, however, agree with Spomer that the difference is minimal in  lower-magnification glass. In fact I would debate its practical difference in most binoulars.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/12/2009 at 23:13
Originally posted by John Barsness John Barsness wrote:

I would, however, agree with Spomer that the difference is minimal in  lower-magnification glass. In fact I would debate its practical difference in most binoulars.


It is pretty dificult to debate how useful ED glass is since adding it introduces pretty significant design differences.  It is not as if you can take a non-ED design and simply swap one of the components out and replace with an ED lens.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2009 at 14:27
I think the Swift Audubon 820s would probably be the closest binocular you could do this type of comparison with...ED vs. non-ED. I have heard mixed comments on the issue so I look forward to trying the comparison for myself.
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acenturian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 03:49
Well I own both the Swift Audubon 820's one non-ED which I gave to my father and I kept the ED version.  The non-ed glass gives you a bit brighter image. The ED version is a tad darker image but eliminates CA, which I am pretty sensitive to.  That is why I kept that pair, well that and the fact that the black body looks better then the gray in my opionion.  Both are fantasic binoculars and darn close to any alpha glass out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acenturian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 05:43

I felt the need to comment on the orginal topic posted and I must say great job to Mr. Barsness.

I have always refered people here to products that I have had first hand experience with and especially if I thought it was a great buy and offered more for the money.

I've shared comments about friends who outright refused to even consider a Bushnell Elite or a Weaver Grand Slam because of their blind loyalty to a golden ring at the front of a scope. These are the same people who would fight to the death to claim their Chevy, Ford or Dodge will out pull, climb or tow the other brand of truck.  And please don't even mention Tundra or Titan (which me personally think are better trucks Big Grin)

But I will tell you where I have a problem with some of these companies who may make some darn good glass. China. If a company has their stuff assembled in China I will pass. That includes shoes, boots (which is hard but can be done) clothing ect... I don't care how strict their quality control is, it's the principle of where it's assmebled not necessarily a quality issue. 
 
Also, I recall reading an article in a car magazine when it compared the new Z06 corvette to a Ferrari. The Corvette had it beat in all kinds of catagories and I still recall a friends comment "Yep that new Vett is impressive great buy too, but it still isn't a Ferrari". 
 
The point is Alpha glass is and always will be the standard to which all others are judged.  That Wonder Brand X maybe just as good as that Zeiss but it still isn't a Zeiss. Something that may or may not be important to a buyer is "trade in, turn around cash" go to ebay and you can still see people buying 30 + year old Zeiss, Leica or Swarovski. Now we can argue that those people are mis-informed and wasting their money with what is out on the market at this time. BUT I bet you will be hard pressed to see people buying Brand X for a couple hundred dollars in 30 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 09:36
But for as cheap as some of these are getting a guy can buy a new pair every 3 or so years and have the latest and greatest and not even feel bad about it.  Try doing that with an Alpha brand.  Then he can keep his others and pass them on to family members friends etc and still be ahead.

At this point a guy has to think that pretty soon supply and demand will start to drive the alpha prices down.  So far they just keep going up and up.  But you can buy a Meopta or Razor for less than half and have 95% or more of the glass quality and all the durability.  Eventually everyone is going to catch on to this. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 09:51
The Meopta is a sleeper for certain. With all these Chinese bino's, the test will be that of time regarding how long they last not just the bino itself, but the companies themselves. You make a good point of being able to buy a new bino every several years and still be ahead cost wise, but if a bino breaks/fogs on a hunting trip in the middle of nowhere, was it really worth the gamble. Guess that depends.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2009 at 10:12
I am not sold on these China brands yet either.  I would like to buy a pair, but fear just what you speak of.  I will probably just stick with Meopta or Razor for my uses.

But not considering the China brands, there are still some great binos out there that are 90% of the Alphas optically maybe more mechanically for 1/3 or less of the price. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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