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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 08:47
Wyatt View Drop Down
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I currently have a set of the Burris Xtreme Tactical Rings, medium height.  They are mounted on a Burris 2 piece base.  My Bushnell 4200 Elite 6-24x50 does not have enough adjustment to be sighted in at 100 yards and then run up to 1,000 yards.

So, to save a little cash, could I put some of the Burris Shims under the front or the rear base to make it work?  This would be my solution instead of spending $80 on a 20 or 25 MOA base.

Would this be alright as far as holding good, maybe some locktite would help make sure the scope and bases don't move.

Thank for the help,   Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 10:51
supertool73 View Drop Down
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You would probably need to lap your rings quite a bit if you do it that way.  With a slanted base the taper will be even from the back base to the front.  If you just shim a rear two piece base the back one will be higher than the front and then when you tighten your scope down it will put a bind on your scope tube because the taper is not even.  And the problem with lapping your rings to much is you can ruin them.  I would say spend the money on the base and do it right.  But in the end it is your choice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 12:03
Wyatt View Drop Down
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Thanks for the help.  I had not thought about binding up the scope.  I am new at this, trying to figure out the right base and still have enough adjustment to run out to 1,000 yards one day.

I found this base:

http://egw-guns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=39&products_id=179

Is this any good?  I don't see how it could be for $39.99 when everything else is like $80.  Also if it is a good one, I hope, then which one would fit my gun.  I have a new Savage 12FV with Accu-trigger.  It is a .308.  I know it sounds crazy but which one do I select, I don't know?

I am mounting a 6-24x50 Bushnell on my .308 and want to be able to sight-in at 100 yards, and still have enough adjustment to adjust to 1,000 yards.  The scope has 44 MOA of adjustment.  Should I get the 20 or 25 MOA base?

Is it 'Long Action' or 'Short Action'?

Thanks for the help,   Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 12:58
supertool73 View Drop Down
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I have heard good things about those EGWs, I bought a 25 MOA EGW for my Ruger 10/22 and the fit and finish seemed good.  You will need a Short action one for yours, and I am assuming you have an accutrigger on your gun so if you do that would be your choice.

I don't think you are going to be able to reach 1000 and still have a 100 yard zero with that Bushnell.  Bushnell scopes just don't have enough adjustment.  You need a scope with 60 or more internal MOA and a 20 MOA base to reach 1000 yards with a 100 yard zero.  You might be able to get a 300 yard zero and reach 1000 with a 30 MOA base but I don't think you will do much better than that. 

My advice is sell the scope and buy one of the Bushnell 6500s or buy a different brand of long range scope.   Super Sniper, IOR, Leupold, Nightforce, Millet, something with more internal adjustment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 13:31
Wyatt View Drop Down
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Is there no other option to get me to 1,000 yards besides selling the scope?  Maybe a different ring-base combination that will get me there, keeping in mind it's a 30mm tube?  I have heard something about rings with inserts that would do it, any in 30mm?

Also on this variable power scope, if I make an adjustment to the elevation with it on 6x or 10x or 15x, does it make the same adjustment in elevation?  I know with the mil-dot reticle it depends on what power you are on, but what about just the windage and elevation adjustments?

Thank You for your help,   Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 13:41
supertool73 View Drop Down
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You can get to 1000 with that scope but you will not be able to get the zero you want.  Seriously I getting a 300 yards zero is probably the best you will get. 

My one IOR scope I had had a 20 MOA base and a 67 MOA of internal elevation and I could reach 1050 max and get a 100 yard zero but that was it.  I tried a 30 MOA base and was not longer able to get a 100 yards zero.  I could have got a 200 but I did not want that so I went back to the 20 MOA base. 

Different rings and bases are not going to make up for the lack of adjustment range in the scope itself.  Sure it is a 30mm tube, but Bushnell did not put enough internal adjustment in the scope to make it a good choice for long range shooting.  You can put a higher slanted base or some kind of slanted rings but the scope itself is still going to be lacking to give you the manual adjustment that you need to get from 100 to 1000.  You need 36 to 40 MOA to reach 1000 depending on the rifle/load/air density and so on.  You have only got 44 max and if you will have to at least cut that in half, so you have 22 available manual adjustment  to deal with.   What you want to do just ain't going to happen with that paticular scope. 

I believe Leatherwood makes an adjustable base but I don't know of anyone who has tried it or tested it to see how well it works.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 13:54
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I guess this is a stupid question, but if I need 36-40 MOA to get to 1,000 and I have 44 then why is there not a way?  I understand that 44 divided by 2 equals 22 up and 22 down.  What I don't understand is if I have a 100 yard zero I won't need to adjust down anymore.

So if I don't need to adjust down anymore then is there not a way to sight in the gun with a 100 yard zero 2-3 MOA off the bottom?  If that was possible I would have 40 MOA of upward adjustment to reach further distances and only 1-2 MOA for downward adjustment.

I'm guessing this is not possible?  Sorry for the rookie questions, I guess I;m thinking about this wrong?

You have very helpful,  Thank You,   Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 14:30
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A couple problems with that.  I know it seems like that would work, but getting everything to line up properly the way you are thinking is virtually impossible.  First the scope is a round tube, inside the tube sits the erector assembly that holds the reticle and lenses.  The erector assembly is what actually moves up and down in the scope tube when you make the adjustments.  If when you mount your scope and sight it in the erector is perfectly centered in the tube left to right then you will have the full travel up and down.  And from what you said it is 44 MOA.  If when you put it on the gun and get it zeroed it is not perfectly centered left to right then you are not going to have the full 44 MOA anymore because if it is off to the right lets say, then when you start going up it is going to hit the side of the tube wall (probably not realistically but it will be built so it stops at a certain distance from the tube all) before it can get to the top.  So now you only have lets say 40 MOA total because of that. 

Next is your elevation going to be perfectly centered when you mount it on the gun.  Most likely not.  If you have a 0 MOA base lets say you actually get the erector centered in the tube and have exactly 22 MOA up and 22 MOA down.  So you add a 20 MOA base ( and hope the base you get is actually 20 MOA not 17 or not 22.  (more realistically you are going to have something like 17 down and 23 up, so when do you get a 17 MOA base to make this work out perfectly the way you are thinking??)  So now you get it set so you only have 2 or 3 down once your at your zero.  So know you have 37 or 38 MOA max up.  So all the stars have aligned and you are able to reach the distance of 1000 yards.  So now you are all pumped and get ready to take a shot and make a full value wind call of XX mphs and you need to adjust say 3 MOA right to make the hit, you go to turn your windage dial and it only has 1 MOA avaiable.  So now you are scratching your head wondering what the heck. And the reason being is because you have your erector smashed up against the tube in the bend and because the tube is round you can not longer have and windage, and the only way to make it work is to dial the elevation down so it can move a bit to the right to make the wind call.  But know you are only able to reach 900 yards with that particular wind.  So you can see the problem with this.

See more importantly than adding distance to your gun a slanted base is designed to keep the reticle closer to the center of your gun at extended ranges.  If you have it maxed out then it is possible what I explained could happen.  It might not depending upon the scope but it could.   If you when you dial into 1000 yards and you still have 10 or more MOA up left then you know for sure you will have some windage adjustment left to compensate for that.  Because the longer the range the more you may need because the bullet is affected more at the longer ranges. 

Now to have everything work out perfectly as I stated is unlikely.  It is better to have a scope with 70 + MOA of travel and a 20 or 30 MOA base.  That way you don't bottom it out when you establish your 100 yard zero and you don't top it out when you reach your 1000 yard distance.  Everthing is just going to be better that way.  When you push anything to its max limit you will start to run into problems, scopes are the same way.

I am not saying all the stars will not align perfectly and it will work out for you.  All I am saying is it is extremely unlikely.  I went through 3 different brands of 20 MOA bases before I found one that gave my .308 the ablility to reach 1200 yards.  They all claimed to be 20 MOA but with each one I had different adjustments ranges with my gun.  The TPS is the one I ended up using and it worked great for me.  Then I switched rings and I was right back to about 1050 to 1100.  So everything will affect it.

So hope that helps.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/16/2008 at 14:55
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Thank you for your help.  I'm going to sight it in today and see how it does.  Then I'll be able to tell how much of what I can do.  Right now I'm going to mount it on a picatinny base with zero MOA built in.

Thanks again, and I might be back tomorrow with more questions,    Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 08:27
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Ok here’s where I’m at.  I took my rifle out yesterday with the Bushnell Elite mounted on a two piece Burris Xtreme mount (zero MOA built in).  I sighted it in at 100 yards to see what I would have left over.

 

With a 100 yard zero, this is what I had left over in adjustments:

 Elevation:                              Windage:

21 MOA up                             26 MOA right

23 MOA down                        18  MOA left

44 MOA total                          44 MOA total

 

So it was 44 MOA of total adjustment. 

 

I have called every, which is few and far between, gun shop and range in the area and none of them have a chronograph or access to one.  When I run my info thru the ballistics calculator I just put 2600 FPS because that is what is stated on the box of ammo.  Black Hills Match, BTHP, FPS: 2600, 175 grain .308, BC: .505.

 

So I ran this thru the ballistics calculator with a 200 yard zero.  It returned saying I would need 35 MOA of adjustment to reach 1,000 yards with a 200 yard zero.  I really like the scope and am willing to hold under for targets under 200 yards.

 

Is there anyway to have a 200 yard zero with my results from above and have 35-40 MOA of up adjustment left over?  What MOA base would this require, if it’s possible?

 

Thanks for the help,   Wyatt

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 09:50
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20 MOA is really your only option.  If you go with 25 or 30 it will probably be to high and you won't get your zero.  Problem with a 20 is you are going to be maxed out to reach 1000 yards if you can.  Theoretically it will work, but you are never going to know for sure until you try it. 

So what kind of windage do you have left to right when you are maxed out on elevation?  Again that is going to be your biggest concern here.  At 1000 yards based on what you are shooting with a 10 mph full value wind you are going to need around 9 MOA to make the hit. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 09:56
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"So what kind of windage do you have left to right when you are maxed out on elevation?"

I forgot to check this out.  I'll have to do it when I get home.  How exactly are you figuring I need a 20 MOA base?  Is it because I have 23 MOA of adjustment down left over, so a 20 MOA base would leave me 3 MOA off the bottom?  I'm just trying to figure out the math on it.

Thanks for your help,   Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 10:07
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Exactly, theoretically with your current numbers 20 will leave you 3 MOA at the bottom with your 200 yard zero.  If you go with a 25 and everything works out correctly (which is unlikely) you will probably not get your 200 zero.  Then again it might work out perfectly and you have a great zero stop.  But on the other side of it you mighbe be 1/2 or 3/4 or 1 MOA away from getting your 200 yard zero, who knows.

Again none of this stuff is known until you try it.  If you buy the 20 it might turn out to give you 22 MOA and might be perfect who knows.  You could buy both the 20 MOA and 25 MOA and find the one that works best and then turn around and sell the other one.    

Edited by supertool73 - June/17/2008 at 10:26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 10:22
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One other problem with making all this so close at the bottom and top end is if you go someplace different to shoot or you would like to shoot a different type of bullet. 

If you are like me I shoot from about 2500 ft elevation all the way up to 9000 and above.  I am constantly changing my zeros and trying to get new data for different environments and I am always trying different bullets.

If you get this so it works perfect with 175 SMK bullets and you have no room at the bottom to go any lower.  What happens if you want to try some 178 grain Amax bullets or some 155 or 185 Lapua bullets, or some hunting type bullets.  I would be thinking about all these things as well.  Or you get a different lot of ammo from black hills and you don't have the same zero you had before.  It might only change it 1/2 MOA or something but that might be enough to cause you problems.

Honestly if this were me and I was set on keeping that particular scope I would probably go with a 15 MOA base and forget about being able to dial in 1000 yards.  Realistically you will probably very seldom shoot that far anyway.  Most of your shooting will probably be max 600 to 700 yards.  Once you get past 500 yards things start getting pretty tough and a lot of learning has to be done to make consistent hits beyond that.  Then maybe in a couple years when you have the max distance of your scope mastered you can buy one with more travel.   1000 yards is what everyone wants to do and it is that magic number for a .308 but it is still a lot of fun and very challenging to shoot anywhere beyond 500 yards and make consistent hits.  And since you have a mildot scope you can always hold over if you want to shoot beyond the max adjustment range of your scope.

Anyway, just a bit more to think about.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 11:43
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I ordered a 20 MOA base from EGW.  I currently have the medium burris xtreme rings 1/2'', do you think with the added base I should opt for the low rings, 1/4''?  Or does that 1/4'' not make a big difference?

Thanks,   Wyatt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/17/2008 at 11:53
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If you can fit lows on there with the 50mm bell, I would do that.  Lower is better so you can get a better cheek weld.  
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