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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 12:45
lucytuma View Drop Down
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I've been contemplating buying some buck shot loads for home defense. I currently have been using "T" shot because thats what was laying around.  I'm curious if there are some advantages and disadvantages with using 00 buck vs #4 buck vs what I'm currently using.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 13:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 13:19
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Good read Cheap, I guess its time to replace the "T" shot.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 13:35
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4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 13:53
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very good read indeed
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 13:53
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I once knew a guy named Buck Shott.  Bucky
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 13:58
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I picked up a few boxes of the reduced recoil (aka reduced power) buckshot for my house shotgun.
I think old painless also tested it here http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
The lower recoil is nice at the range. Not sure I'd really notice in a self defense situation?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 22:00
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Even birdshot can kill if the shot it placed in the head neck area and not many people will continue toward you if you are shooting them even with birdshot cause you just might get lucky.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 17:10
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Hello all:
My experience with smaller than 0 buckshot has been very poor.
Our agency went to 00-000 buck after examining the results of two of my shootings and three others that occurred within three weeks.
Our issue load at the time was 4 buck and it failed to perform..shots from one side of the thoracic cavity to the other side did NOT penetrate far enough to hit the heart and aorta. Pellets at three yards failed to penetrate the skull into the brain and no pellets had enough penetration to sever the spinal cord on face on thoracic cavity shots.
The perps in three shootings out of five took four rounds each before going down..longest distance was about fifteen yards and hits were either in the head or thoracic cavity.
Only one perp had a dirty tox screen..alcohol.
The other perps took three rounds each in the thoracic cavity and one after taking three rounds was able to reload a revolver and fire two rounds before finally dying.
When you are slugging it out so close that the perps blood is on you from the hits and they don't go down, well that becomes a learning experience.
Go with a low recoil 00 buck shot load, it will work up to 25-30 yards and penetrate a heavy jacket and clothing..the Federal/CCI/Speer FliteControl worked the best in various tests.
A shotgun at any range has to be aimed like a rifle..I had and used the rifle sights on my rem 870.
Practice, practice, practice with what ever you have..empty the mag and practice reloading under stress and firing some more.
Racking a shotgun to intimidate a gang banger will get you shot..for real..they can't survive on the street by hesitating.
Art




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/01/2012 at 17:37
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Excellent commentary, Art. Thank you. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 00:47
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From a sheer patterning standpoint I have found most of my "home defense", ie non-hunting, shotguns to produce fairly poor results with smaller shot. The patterns tend to be very large with low density of shot. The poor shot density combined with smaller shot seems to indicate that these rounds would be a less effective choice for defense than 00 or 000 buckshot. The caveat to this is that I live in an area where I do not have to worry very much about over-penetration. If you live in an apartment complex or have adjacent houses that are particularly close, over-penetration can be a serious issue as the larger buckshot will certainly punch through several layers of drywall.

My best patterns were accomplished with 000 buck, so that is what I load in my defensive shotguns. But there are a variety of concerns that must be accounted for when choosing defensive rounds, and honestly the right choice is determined by so many individual circumstances that it makes broad generalizations more useful as theory than practical knowledge.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 05:41
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What about just using slugs? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2012 at 15:37
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Shot sizes #6 and larger penetrate drywall..take two pieces and separate them by three inches and fire a round..the shot will penetrate.
Shot smaller than #2 buck won't penetrate the thoracic cavity far enough to stop..if you are using a 20ga make sure you use #2 buck.
Truth be told the pump action shotgun began being used in law enforcement because it was cheap, many people hunted with them so little training was needed and it was not really considered a military weapon.
Notice that when the good guys began slugging it out in the twenties and thirties with the road bandits they chose semi-auto rifles, Thompson's and BAR's..latter we had M-1 Garands, M-1 Carbines, UZI's, M-16's and M-14..locals had 30/30 Winchesters, shotguns and hunting rifles because of the PR factor.
We used Ithaca 37's and Rem 870's when the other weapons became politically unacceptable.
A Ruger Mini-14 won't shoot as well or hold up as well as a "Quality" M-4 clone (Colt is the standard) but with the correct ammo won't penetrate structure as far as buckshot.
A friend slicked up a Remington 7600 in .223 for his wife.. she loves it and shoots it better than a shotgun.
The ten round mag makes it easier to load and since she practices more with it she has gotten very good.
Practice is the key to mastering any system..whatever you have you will need to practice to be effective.
Good luck.
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 08:44
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Originally posted by gulf1263 gulf1263 wrote:

Hello all:
My experience with smaller than 0 buckshot has been very poor.
Our agency went to 00-000 buck after examining the results of two of my shootings and three others that occurred within three weeks.
Our issue load at the time was 4 buck and it failed to perform..shots from one side of the thoracic cavity to the other side did NOT penetrate far enough to hit the heart and aorta. Pellets at three yards failed to penetrate the skull into the brain and no pellets had enough penetration to sever the spinal cord on face on thoracic cavity shots.
The perps in three shootings out of five took four rounds each before going down..longest distance was about fifteen yards and hits were either in the head or thoracic cavity.
Only one perp had a dirty tox screen..alcohol.
The other perps took three rounds each in the thoracic cavity and one after taking three rounds was able to reload a revolver and fire two rounds before finally dying.
When you are slugging it out so close that the perps blood is on you from the hits and they don't go down, well that becomes a learning experience.
Go with a low recoil 00 buck shot load, it will work up to 25-30 yards and penetrate a heavy jacket and clothing..the Federal/CCI/Speer FliteControl worked the best in various tests.
A shotgun at any range has to be aimed like a rifle..I had and used the rifle sights on my rem 870.
Practice, practice, practice with what ever you have..empty the mag and practice reloading under stress and firing some more.
Racking a shotgun to intimidate a gang banger will get you shot..for real..they can't survive on the street by hesitating.
Art
.
 
ShockedWOW!!!
Were ya'll useing Remington loads?? Seriously I have had so many problems with Rem ammo over the yrs I cannot recommend it at all. I know there are those who sware by it but I can't. And to know that a blast of #4's didn't take someones head off at 3 yds is incerdible.
I hope the ammo they switched to is better quality.
 
I would have never expected that kind of outcome.  I often dimenstrate the effects of 71/2 and #5 shot at close range for clients at the shooting range. Showing the slug like holes made out to 10yds. It is hard to imagine anyone taking a shotgun blast of any shot size inside 15yds and being able to do anything but die. I caution everyone I teach to always be aware of collateral damage and load according to your particular situation. I'll have to revisit stradegy because if I had to blast someone center mass with a shotgun and they were up for more I would have been unprepared.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 16:35
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The newer wads and loads are very different from what was loaded back in the early 1970's..much more concentrated shot columns today.
Remember the old cardboard wad loads, that's what we used, Winchester, Federal and Remington.
Smaller shot still has a problem penetrating heavy muscle and bone.
US gov issued #4 buckshot, a series of shootings in the early 1970's resulted in less than optimum results and we got #00-000 loads.
Once drugs were a factor it became even worse..we had one shooting were you could see daylight through the bad guy and he did not go down immediately..docs worked on him for 20+ minutes before he expired.
I do not really want to continue to discuss these shootings in an open forum.
Suffice to say that my personal experience with smaller than #00 shot has not been very good.
A shotgun is not a death ray..nothing guarantees a one shot stop..as an Aussie SAS man told me once
"you blokes dropped two atomic bombs and still couldn't get all the buggers"..he was referring to shot placement.
Bad guys are wearing everything from hoodies and multiple layers of clothing underneath to bullet proof vests and light shot will no impress them.
Against a vest, heavy buckshot can bruise and break ribs, it at least hurts their feelings.
It is your life..if you want to sell it cheap, go ahead. I value mine and intend to use the most effective weapon at my disposal to protect my self and others.
Art



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 16:57
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I have only 00 buck in my home defense 12 gauge shotgun. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 18:29
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So then Im assuming that to use a 3" Magnum loaded with OO Buck would be a much better bad guy stopper then 2.750" Mag OO Buck..    3'' inch Mags is what I use for home defense, Ive always just assumed them (3 inch) to work better....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 19:12
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IMHO #2-000 seems to work OK as far as penetration and "stopping power" as proven in recent testing and street use.
Low recoil allows you to practice and shortens target engagement times, we tried the magnums and it wasn't worth the extra recoil, muzzle flash and muzzle blast especially inside of structures.
After seeing a demo of a vest being hit by Federal Flite Control 00 buck and the backforce trauma that resulted, well I was glad that I or anyone I knew never got shot in the chest with that load..certainly cracked and bruised ribs and maybe a collasped lung or very badly bruised heart.
You are looking to optimize all aspects of a weapon system.
For civilians or law enforcement limited to the shotgun I would say pick the lightest recoiling, best patterning load and go with that, get some quality training and practice, practice, practice.
If you can use something besides a shotgun, save up for a QUALITY AR-15 (think Colt, Bravo Company, La Rue, Wilson, etc.) and get the best training you can afford and practice.
A good 30/30/357/44 Mag lever gun works fine, so does a Remington 7600 in a light recoiling caliber.
Quality training and practice count for more than the load your weapon will use.
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2012 at 21:36
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Thanks Art  Stay Safe
Wes
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2012 at 00:36
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Originally posted by gulf1263 gulf1263 wrote:

IMHO #2-000 seems to work OK as far as penetration and "stopping power" as proven in recent testing and street use.
Low recoil allows you to practice and shortens target engagement times, we tried the magnums and it wasn't worth the extra recoil, muzzle flash and muzzle blast especially inside of structures.
After seeing a demo of a vest being hit by Federal Flite Control 00 buck and the backforce trauma that resulted, well I was glad that I or anyone I knew never got shot in the chest with that load..certainly cracked and bruised ribs and maybe a collasped lung or very badly bruised heart.
You are looking to optimize all aspects of a weapon system.
For civilians or law enforcement limited to the shotgun I would say pick the lightest recoiling, best patterning load and go with that, get some quality training and practice, practice, practice.
If you can use something besides a shotgun, save up for a QUALITY AR-15 (think Colt, Bravo Company, La Rue, Wilson, etc.) and get the best training you can afford and practice.
A good 30/30/357/44 Mag lever gun works fine, so does a Remington 7600 in a light recoiling caliber.
Quality training and practice count for more than the load your weapon will use.
Art
This is good information for me!!
   Ive never been a lover of recoil, not sure why anyone would be unless they are just a egomainiac. Anyway Im glad to hear the 2.750 loads are enough. Ive got some ordered now.
Thanks Gulf1263
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